How do we not have a thread about Tosh's rape joke?

[KrazeeStacee]

Did I miss it? It's apparently all the rage on the internets, people...I thought we were on top of things here! Besides, this is right up Netphoria's alley...

My favorite article so far:
http://austin.culturemap.com/newsdet...ed-rape-jokes/

The best response we've heard to Daniel Tosh's 'misquoted' rape jokes

BY CURTIS LUCIANI
07.12.12 | 03:10 pm


Editor's note: By now, you've probably heard about the terrible (because it's all too common) incident that happened recently at the Hollywood Laugh Factory between comedian Daniel Tosh and a female audience member who was vocal about her displeasure with Tosh defending rape jokes in his stand-up act.

Tosh, who is known for his over-the-line comedy, both live and on-air, apologized over Twitter to the offended individual, providing some legitimacy to the claim that he went way over the line in this instance.

The he-said/she-said details of this particular instance, however, are far less important than the emerging discussion by comedians, feminists and media experts who have either expressed their support of Tosh or stand-up in general or commented upon the persistence of "off-limits" joke territories.

Lovers of the art form generally seem to agree that comedy is one of the few sacred spaces where commentary can be made on difficult, taboo topics in order to invite dialog. But most would also agree it takes a keenly honed sense of awareness and subtlety to execute these types of jokes successfully.

Of all the blog posts and news articles written about this recent flare-up of the age old comedy question so far, it's been Austin area comedian Curtis Luciani who offered up the most deceptively eloquent statement on the larger matter that we've seen yet. As a member of sketch comedy groups Your Terrific Neighbors and The Hustle Show, he's no stranger to flirting with that razon-thin line between hysterical and ostracizing. But he's also, clearly, a really smart dude who gets the meaning and use of satire.

Published with his permission, here's his response in its full, unapologetic glory (be advised: it contains dirty language) as it appeared on Facebook Wednesday.

---

Let's imagine a world in which women cut men's dicks off. Like, frequently. To the extent that one in five men has had his dick cut off by a woman or had a woman attempt to cut his dick off.

(I apologize immediately if it sounds like I'm being flip. I am not being flip. Imagine the pain and shame and humiliation of someone cutting your dick off. Imagine it in earnest.)

Sometimes it's a clear-cut case where a woman attacks you in the street, out of nowhere, and cuts your dick off. But more often it's a situation where you actually know the woman, maybe you trust her, maybe you think everything's okay, and then one day she cuts your dick off.

Still with me? This is going to take a while. I'll tell you when I'm done. (And if you think I'm being insufferably self-righteous: Good news, you don't have to read this!)

Okay, now let's also say that the shame and guilt around having your dick cut off is so strong that many dick-cuttings go completely unreported. After all, someone is likely to raise the question of whether or not you were "asking for it" in one way or another. And if you do accuse a woman of cutting your dick off, you can expect to see people (quite naturally) rally to her defense and slander your character in response.

You can expect to see her friends... who are maybe also friends or yours... shrug their shoulders and say "Well, I don't know, it's complicated... it sounds like something was just happening between the two of them and maybe it got out of hand. I dunno. But I know that Sarah's not a bad gal. I know she would never, like, MALICIOUSLY cut a dude's dick off."

So, a shitty state of affairs for the men-folk of our imaginary world, yes?

Now imagine that in this world, something like 90 percent of professional performing comedians are women. And they've accepted that there are certain codes of behavior when it comes to comedy. Most people who "like comedy" generally accept the premise that there are no subject areas that cannot be somehow given a comic treatment, but it is also accepted, as a practical rule, that as the subject gets more troubling, more intense, more painful, a more skilled approach is necessary to find the humor in it.

However, it is also accepted that people are people and they are going to have authentic responses to things. It is accepted, for example, that you probably should not go in front of an audience that contains several black people and start tossing around the n-word unless you have an EXCEPTIONALLY sophisticated and road-tested routine built around it, one that you are confident will overcome the very significant risk you are incurring. If a comedian did this and did NOT overcome the risk, no one would be shocked if the audience shouted her down and stormed her out of the club, nor would anyone be particularly eager to defend her.

HOWEVER, there's this ONE thing. Many of the comediennes of this world have this ONE little sticking point. One little thing. It just IRKS the hell out of them that they can't seem to make jokes about cutting dicks off without some whiny pussy male in the audience throwing a shit fit about it!

Now, sure, there's a few comediennes at the top of their game who can pull it off. Their approach is skillful, and they somehow make the joke without minimalizing or trivializing the actual pain involved. But then the rest of them think, "Well, geez, if they can do it, why can't I? It's not fair, darn it! I should be able to work with the same material as someone much better than me and get the same result and not make anyone hate me or say mean things about me on the Internet! Waaaaahhh!

"I mean, after all, do that many men REALLY get their dicks cut off? I've heard the statistic, but that's probably overblown. And I bet a lot of them were asking for it. I mean, in any case, there's a lot of grey area. I know one thing for sure: none of the men I KNOW has ever had his dick cut off. If they had, they would tell me, right? I mean, right? And besides, there's a principle at stake here. I AM AN ARTIST. I should be able to say whatever shitty thing I want, and people should be able to suppress their authentic response to it!

"And if they DON'T suppress their authentic response to it: why, that's censorship or something! Besides, I know this and that example of a time where a comedienne I know made a joke that wasn't even ABOUT dick-cutting, and some whiny pussy dude got upset about it anyway! It's just these humorless masculinists! They can't take a joke about anything anyway. So, since I can think of examples where a comedienne was unfairly criticized by someone without a sense of humor, this must be what happens in all cases."

Okay, I think we see what I'm getting at here.

Fine, yes, WHAT-THE-FUCK-EVER. I will concede the following points that every comedian wants us all so badly to concede:

1) Theoretically, there is no subject that should be considered off-limits for humor.

2) There will always be some example where a performer of extremely high skill can take something very painful and make it work.

But...

Here's what YOU need to understand:

1) Rape is way, WAY more prevalent than you seem to think it is. Are there more than five women in your audience? You do the math, and then you run the little fantasy scenario that I just put together in your head, and you tell me how it feels.

2) I ain't buying any of that "If I can make jokes about genocide, why can't I make jokes about rape?" Horseshit, unless you made those genocide jokes during a gig at the Srebrenica Funny Bone. You got away with making a joke about genocide because your odds of having a holocaust survivor's kid in the audience were pretty fucking low.

And if you did happen to have one in the audience, and he heckled you, walked out, and wrote something nasty on the internet... would you be more likely to be a human being and say "Wow. I can understand why that person's authentic response to what I was doing was so emotional and negative. Maybe my genocide material just isn't good enough to justify the pain that it inflicts. Maybe I need more skill in order to pull this off." Or are you gonna be a lousy piece of shit and say, "Yeah, I apologize, I guess, IF YOU WERE OFFENDED."

Offended hasn't got anything to do with it, moron.

People have wounds, and those wounds are painful. That doesn't have shit to do with the weak concept of "taking offense." If someone talks about Texas being a shitty state, I might "take offense" at that. Fine, whatever. All of us who like comedy are generally in agreement with the idea that "taking offense" is lame, and a comedian should be willing to "offend" whenever he or she wants to.

But causing pain is quite a different fucking matter. Your job as a comedian is to take us through pain, transcend pain, transform pain. And if you don't get that, you are a fucking bully, and I've got zero time for bullies.

[killtrocity]

http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?p=3851428

[teh b0lly!!1]

i love how killtrocity's thread is succinct and easy on the eyes and this thread is a wall of text trainwreck

[Shallowed]

Is joking about murder worse than joking about rape?

[Toast]

Tosh, who is known for his over-the-line comedy, both live and on-air, apologized over Twitter to the offended individual, providing some legitimacy to the claim that he went way over the line in this instance.

Tired of this shit.
Seriously, shut the fuck up if something hurts your feelings. Horse shit PC garbage.

[Mooney]

can someone explain to me in 140 characters or less this rape joke situation?

[null123]

Originally Posted by Toast

Tired of this shit.
Seriously, shut the fuck up if something hurts your feelings. Horse shit PC garbage.

How about you shut the fuck up if us talking about our hurt feelings hurts your feelings

[Sonic Johnny]

Tosh got heckled for telling a rape joke and then implied that it would be hilarious if the female heckler was herself raped.

[Toast]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

How about you shut the fuck if us talking about our hurt feelings hurts your feelings

I called that Rape Advice Line earlier today. Unfortunately, it’s only for victims.

[null123]

more ironic misogyny huh. what's the point of posts like that? you all keep making them over and over.

[Starla]

This is how I feel when women joke about their abortions. I mean, not only does it creep me out, I find it really unnerving how they can so easily snark about killing the life inside of them.

I'm pro choice, but.... it's still just fucked up.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by Sonic Johnny

Tosh got heckled for telling a rape joke and then implied that it would be hilarious if the female heckler was herself raped.

As he should be. That's really sick.

I tend to hate Sarah Silverman's abortion jokes.

[KrazeeStacee]

Originally Posted by Starla

This is how I feel when women joke about their abortions. I mean, not only does it creep me out, I find it really unnerving how they can so easily snark about killing the life inside of them.

I'm pro choice, but.... it's still just fucked up.

Not that I think it's a good idea, but it's not necessarily about snarking about killing the life inside of them - it's more about the whole "taking it back" mentality. It's like well, you're going to sit here and tell me what a piece of shit you think I am because I had an abortion - well I'm going to say something even more fucked up so you can see that I'm not going to let you hurt me. I dunno, it's 4am and I'm not in the mood to debate but just wanted to try to make that point since this is netphoria and I am the abortion queen around here I suppose (see?)

Granted, it doesn't seem like people are as heartless and immature around here these days, but they used to be and the only time someone ever made me cry insulting me over the internet was here when some dumb whore thought it was a good idea to tell everyone my business and the buzzards came flocking to tell me what a piece of shit I was in the most witty and creative ways possible.

However, there's something different about rape. It's hard to try to explain but it has to do with the fact that there is a certain level of fear that most women have learned to live with...it's not even a conscious decision but we make countless choices on which street we'll walk down, what time we'll leave a party and with whom, what we'll wear, or even how we make eye contact with strange men.

It has to do with the fact that rape isn't a choice you make, it isn't something you make an appointment for, go to counselling to have nurses tell you what to expect and how to deal with it afterwards. It isn't something a person feels like they should have to defend. Women who have abortions aren't "victims". If Tosh made a joke about that woman having an abortion right there in the room and the entire place swelled with men laughing - she wouldn't have this instinctual fear to run away for her safety.

Since people don't seem to like to read around here anymore, I'll just post the link to this article that explains why Tosh is a tool. You people can read it if you'd like to, I won't force you to scroll past a page of annoying words!

http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke

[KrazeeStacee]

Also, another good article that I think goes along with all this rape culture discussion:

A woman's worst nightmare? That's pretty easy. Novelist Margaret Atwood writes that when she asked a male friend why men feel threatened by women, he answered, "They are afraid women will laugh at them." When she asked a group of women why they feel threatened by men, they said, "We're afraid of being killed."

http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/...nightmare.html

[yo soy el mejor]

http://www.change.org/petitions/ceo-...sh-off-the-air

do those things online petitions really work?

[Starla]

Originally Posted by KrazeeStacee

Not that I think it's a good idea, but it's not necessarily about snarking about killing the life inside of them - it's more about the whole "taking it back" mentality. It's like well, you're going to sit here and tell me what a piece of shit you think I am because I had an abortion - well I'm going to say something even more fucked up so you can see that I'm not going to let you hurt me. I dunno, it's 4am and I'm not in the mood to debate but just wanted to try to make that point since this is netphoria and I am the abortion queen around here I suppose (see?)

I understand that mentality and where it comes from. But I have spoken with a few women who have indicated that for them, abortion was similar to feeling raped. That is why I made the comment that I don't care for the abortion jokes either, because they are just as damaging imo as ones about rape, and I know there are some feminists who think it's cool to do that all in the name of "taking it back". How is it okay to joke about taking a life, but not okay to joke about rape anyway?

[Starla]

Really don't care for Margaret Atwood. Her book Handmaid's Tale is akin to rapist porn for those who enjoy reading about women who are controlled, locked up, sexually abused and used for breeding purposes, mostly by older men. Just a nasty book and the film was pretty fucked too.

[D.]

I liked The Edible Woman but that's the only Atwood I've read.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Starla

Really don't care for Margaret Atwood. Her book Handmaid's Tale is akin to rapist porn for those who enjoy reading about women who are controlled, locked up, sexually abused and used for breeding purposes, mostly by older men. Just a nasty book and the film was pretty fucked too.

that sounds really fucked up. i knew a guy who would be totally into it and even expressed a desire to do something like that, and he's a sick fuck who will hopefully be in jail before he kills someone (if he hasn't already)

[KrazeeStacee]

Originally Posted by Starla

How is it okay to joke about taking a life, but not okay to joke about rape anyway?

I think that's what I was just trying to explain.

Besides...I didn't take a life, that's an argument that's up for debate. Rape is rape no matter how you spin it.

Also, sure abortion is a horrible thing to have to go through but like I said - that's a choice you make. You don't make the decision to be raped and deal with the consequences.

When you get an abortion, you're not a victim of abortion. There isn't fear of victim-blaming.

Abortion is a debate, it sucks but it's a legal choice you can decide to make for yourself.

Taken from the wikipedia article on "rape culture" - this pretty much sums up why it's especially fucked up to make rape jokes, especially in the way that Tosh did (it's not a topic that's off-limits, but it's how you deliver the message that counts - read the "how to make a rape joke" blog I posted earlier)

According to the rape culture theory, acts of sexism are commonly employed to validate and rationalize normative misogynistic practices. For instance, sexist jokes may be told to foster disrespect for women and an accompanying disregard for their well-being. An example would be a female rape victim being blamed for her being raped because of how she dressed or acted. In rape culture, sexualized violence towards women is regarded as a continuum in a society that regards women's bodies as sexually available by default.

[yo soy el mejor]

Originally Posted by reprise85

that sounds really fucked up. i knew a guy who would be totally into it and even expressed a desire to do something like that, and he's a sick fuck who will hopefully be in jail before he kills someone (if he hasn't already)

oh, wow. you sure know some fucked up people. you've been through sooo much.

and the book is nothing like starla described. you should read it yourself.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by KrazeeStacee

I think that's what I was just trying to explain.

Besides...I didn't take a life, that's an argument that's up for debate. Rape is rape no matter how you spin it.

Also, sure abortion is a horrible thing to have to go through but like I said - that's a choice you make. You don't make the decision to be raped and deal with the consequences.

When you get an abortion, you're not a victim of abortion. There isn't fear of victim-blaming.

Abortion is a debate, it sucks but it's a legal choice you can decide to make for yourself.

Taken from the wikipedia article on "rape culture" - this pretty much sums up why it's especially fucked up to make rape jokes, especially in the way that Tosh did (it's not a topic that's off-limits, but it's how you deliver the message that counts - read the "how to make a rape joke" blog I posted earlier)

I don't care to debate how you felt about your abortion, because that's your experience. I'm talking about women who felt it was similar to rape for them, and although getting an abortion is a choice, they were not expecting to feel that way. And I do disagree on being a victim of abortion because of the emotions that many feel afterward. Many women have spoken out about how it felt like medical rape, or how the doctor felt like their rapist. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't feel this way because they made a choice?

[Starla]

Originally Posted by yo soy el mejor

oh, wow. you sure know some fucked up people. you've been through sooo much.

and the book is nothing like starla described. you should read it yourself.

The book really details a culture of women who are also misogynistic, wanting to control other women and repress them. In Gilead, the women don't fear the men as much as they fear the women that are in power over them. Am I missing something here?

[PkPhuoko]

Stacees link to jezebel says all you need to know about her need to make this post on netphoria.

btw welcome back stacee.... just think your fetus would almost be old enough to have her own abortion by now

[pavementtune]

I've seen a lot of 'not funny at all' posts on this board, but you just crossed a line.

[KrazeeStacee]

I just don't have it in me anymore, guys. I don't even have the energy to post in the "other" thread. I have failed netphoria...

I'm so bored I think I'm going to go look at chiffon veils on ebay.

[null123]

It's a shame that out of our desire to promote pro-choice politics we often gloss over how traumatic and crappy of a solution abortion is for many women (not that the other "solutions" to unwanted pregnancy are less so.)

[john's ego]

http://www.thisismyabortion.com/

[null123]

Originally Posted by PkPhuoko

Stacees link to jezebel says all you need to know about her need to make this post on netphoria.

btw welcome back stacee.... just think your fetus would almost be old enough to have her own abortion by now

Okay, now slither back into whatever D&B forum you crawled out of.

[Shallowed]

I saw a Facebook post once that compared women's/men's contraception to wearing a bulletproof vest/firing blanks. Pretty spot on.