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Old 01-15-2003, 02:46 AM   #1
sarmatianus
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Default So, the new holy grail?

First off, I am VERY grateful that MP was released. So I don't want to hear anyone saying that now that it's released, a thread like this is emerging out of ennui. I haven't even listened to all of it yet, but my ears are very happy.

Nonetheless, out of personal curiousity, what will be declared now as the new holy grail of the community?

An obvious first candidate would be the Avalon show, but from what I have heard, it seems like it's circulating slowly and covertly, but at a rate at which it will be beyond preventing a leak sometime in the near future.

My nomination would be for the so-called "LoC" tape - mostly for reasons that I just researched and discovered:

1. There are no other known copies confirmed to be in anybody's possession (though Billy, at the least, undoubtedly has one).

2. The tape is in the possession of the Copyright Office not the Library of Congress. This is an important distinction, because although the Copyright Office operates under the LoC, its depository holdings are independent of the LoC stacks.

3. Unlike the rather restrictive provisions of the LoC listening rooms, there are absolutely no standard accessings of Copyright deposits.

"Copies of deposits may be obtained upon the request of the owner of the copyright in the deposit, by an attorney in connection with litigation involving the copyrighted work, and through a court order issued by a court having jurisdiction in a case in which the copy is to be submitted as evidence."

4. Security procedures for the entire LoC campus of buildings, as well as penalties for violations are stringent enough to scare away, well, anyone with either or a brain or anything less than secret agent skills. http://www.loc.gov/rr/security/

Yeah, so I think that it's not gonna happen. I know that this conversation has been had many times before, but to my knowledge, I don't think the LoC vs. Copyright Office difference was noted or mentioned. And it changes the chances of it being listened to by any of us, much less a copy coming out of there, from extremely slim to virtually nil. Oh well.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 03:20 AM   #2
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It all sounds really interesting...and I'd love to hear the recording. Although at this point, it seems pretty impossible, unless Billy gives the recording to someone, who then gives it to us Or someone gets a job at the Library of Congress and somehow obtains the recording through the high security...

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 03:54 AM   #3
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I don't think the SD demos are the next holy grail. I'd rather have 12/2/00, or the "25 Songs O' Pumpkins" video.

But yeah, okay... I guess after those two, the Siamese Dream demos would be my next holy grail (probably tied with Avalon and the "I Fall" demo). But it's silly to even talk about them, because I think they're pretty much out of our hands. It's sorta like that pro-shot Arising Tour footage that the band used for the Untitled video. Yes, it exists... but good luck getting a copy of it.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just too pessimistic.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:40 AM   #4
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I guess by holy grail status, I mean desireability of the contents of the item combined with the difficulty of obtaining it. I don't see 12/2 being as difficult as this. At least we had a promise (forgotten, perhaps) of a dvd as well as half of the show in good circulation and at least three other recordings in underground circles.

As for the Adore shows...that's nice and all, but to me it's not as cool. First of all, we have many of those shows in nice recordings. Second, most of us don't really watch concert videos more than a handful of times.

The allure of the SD demos is both the completely otherwise unknown songs on that tape as well as the possibilities of how the songs we know and love would sound in demo form. That to me brings it up to that level.

Is 25 Songs the same as Fruit Bat Salad?

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:53 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by sarmatianus
I guess by holy grail status, I mean desireability of the contents of the item combined with the difficulty of obtaining it.
Ah, okay... I was just figuring based on desireability, regardless of the difficulty of obtaining it.

Quote:
Originally posted by sarmatianus
As for the Adore shows...that's nice and all, but to me it's not as cool. First of all, we have many of those shows in nice recordings. Second, most of us don't really watch concert videos more than a handful of times.
Well I said Arising Tour, and I hardly consider that to be Adore era. The difference, of course, is that there are already tons of pro-shot Adore shows. But you're right, most traders don't give a damn about videos. Then again, I was posting what I would personally want the most... not what most traders would want.

Quote:
Originally posted by sarmatianus
The allure of the SD demos is both the completely otherwise unknown songs on that tape as well as the possibilities of how the songs we know and love would sound in demo form. That to me brings it up to that level.
Yeah, I guess you're right. I'd kill for that Suicide Kiss recording!

Quote:
Originally posted by sarmatianus
Is 25 Songs the same as Fruit Bat Salad?
No, 25 Songs O' Pumpkins is also commonly known as the "Psycho" video. It has I'm Free, My Dahlia (rehearsal), Sun, Spiteface, Venus In Furs, Jennifer Ever, I Am One, Rhinoceros, There it Goes, She, My Eternity, Billy and Bob at Geraldo, all of 10/31/89, and some Marked stuff. *drools*

I guess I'm missing 4 of the songs in my little list there, to make the total of 25... can anybody tell me what's on there that I don't know about?

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 06:07 AM   #6
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Theres a Doors cover song in the 25 songs as well.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 06:18 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smiley


Yeah, I guess you're right. I'd kill for that Suicide Kiss recording!

I'd slaughter ten men (brutally) in perfect health for a copy of Suicide Kiss. Geek U.S.A. has to be one of my top 10 favorite Pumpkins songs, and obviously Suicide Kiss is the holy grail in reference to that.


 
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Old 01-15-2003, 06:22 AM   #8
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Exclamation Re: So, the new holy grail?

Quote:
Originally posted by sarmatianus
My nomination would be for the so-called "LoC" tape
As far as I've been told, these demos are a made-up story. No one ever confirmed those were true. I'm not saying they don't exist, but afaik the LoC story was nothing but a troll. But like Thom Yorke would say, "I might be wrooooong".

As for the new holy grail, I'd go with Avalon. First one that comes to mind.

-AZVD.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 06:28 AM   #9
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It's the Adore tour documentary they had clips from on the virgin site.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 07:01 AM   #10
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Default Re: Re: So, the new holy grail?

Quote:
Originally posted by azvd
As far as I've been told, these demos are a made-up story. No one ever confirmed those were true. I'm not saying they don't exist, but afaik the LoC story was nothing but a troll. But like Thom Yorke would say, "I might be wrooooong".
But um... if you search the LOC copywrite website, you can find it listed...

http://www.copyright.gov/records

Here are a few of my favorites, with my comments after each one:

Quote:
Registration Number: PA-853-135
Title: Parallel stories / written, produced and performed by Billy Corgan ; drums by Matt Walker.
In: Ramsom, original soundtrack. mHollywood Records HR-62086-2, c1996. Compact disc
Claimant: Touchstone Pictures Music & Songs
Created: 1996
Published: 26Nov96
Registered: 21Jul97
Author on Application: music: Ransom Productions, Inc., employer for hire.
The other Ransom songs are copywrited also. This one is interesting because it's a song that appears on the Ransom soundtrack, but not as done by Billy and Matt.

Quote:
Registration Number: PAu-2-358-374
Title: The Hexen tapes.
Description: Videocassette ; 1/2 in.
Claimant: Jim Malone
Created: 1985
Registered: 23Dec98
Author on Application: music: acJim Malone , 1966-, John Sterba , 1967-, & Bill Corgan , 1967-.
Special Codes: 3/M
How's that for a holy grail?

Quote:
Registration Number: PA-815-044
Title: Pastichio medley.
Note: Performed by the aSmashing Pumpkins.
In: Zero. mVirgin Records America 7243 8 38545 2 3 v25g-38545, c1996. Compact disc
Claimant: D'Arcy Wretzsky-Brown, Cinderful Music, Chrysalis Songs, James Chamberlin & Cellophane Star Music
Created: 1995
Published: 23Apr96
Registered: 30Sep96
Author on Application: music: William Patrick Corgan, James Iha, acD'Arcy Wretzsky-Brown & acJames Chamberlin.
I like that one because it's the only one I saw that credits the entire band.

Quote:
Registration Number: PA-1-081-010
Title: Machina II : The friends & enemies of modern music.
Description: Sound cassette.
Note: Collection.
Claimant: Faust's Haus Music
Created: 1999
Published: 5Sep00
Registered: 15Apr02
Title on Application: Slow down.
Author on Application: lyrics & music: William Corgan , 1967-.
Cassette, eh? I like that the publication date on this one is correct... that's the date that Machina 2 exploded onto the internet.

Quote:
Registration Number: SRu-156-827
Title: Brain tripping--mind dripping.
Description: sound cassette.
Note: Cataloged from appl. Additional ti.: The Smashing pumpkins.
Claimant: (c) (p) William Corgan
Created: 1989
Registered: 24May89
Author on Application: music, lyrics, performance, recording: William Patrick Corgan.
Special Codes: 37/N
The time of registration and the additional title of "The Smashing pumpkins" seems to imply that this was the self-titled demo tape. I wonder why the performance is listed as Billy, and not the whole band. That could have easily been a mistake though.

Quote:
Registration Number: PAu-1-211-872
Title: The Smashing Pumpkins.
Description: 1 sound cassette.
Note: Two selections.
Claimant: William Corgan
Created: 1989
Registered: 28Mar89
Author on Application: words & music: William P. Corgan.
Special Codes: 3/M
Not sure what this one is.

Quote:
Registration Number: PAu-1-699-154
Title: Quiet, & 20 other songs / w & m William Patrick Corgan.
Claimant: Cinderful Music & Chrysalis Songs
Created: 1992
Registered: 28Dec92
Miscellaneous: See also Quiet, and other songs; REG 22Dec94; PAu 1-960-171 & REG 27Feb96; PAu 2-055-159
Special Codes: 3/M
Thar she blows!

Quote:
Registration Number: PAu-1-699-155
Title: Mayonaze / w & m William Patrick Corgan & acJames Iha.
Claimant: Cinderful Music, Chrysalis Songs, & James Iha
Created: 1992
Registered: 28Dec92
Special Codes: 3/M
um, yeah.

Quote:
Registration Number: PAu-1-960-171
Title: Quiet, & other songs; a collection of songs for album II. By William Patrick Corgan.
Note: (C.O. corres.) CONTENTS: Quiet. Kitty kat. Cherub rock. Suicide kiss. Today. Disarm. Rocket. Space boy. Set the ray to Jerry. Soma. Whirl. Doorstep. Pissant. Tulips. Hummer. French movie theme.
Claimant: Cinderful Music & Chrysalis SongsSREG: PAu 1-699-154, 1992
Effective Registration Date: 22Dec94
Special Codes: 3/M/X
So, the first one was registered at the end of 1992, before SD was finished. Mayo was registered onthe same day, on a separate tape... maybe so James could claim it, or maybe it was just a last minute thing. This one, on the other hand, is from 1994. Notice that this is "Quiet & other songs" (15 other songs, according to the list). But the other one was "Quiet & 20 other songs"! I also think it's interesting that French Movie Theme is on here. I'd guess that it probably wasn't on the 1992 tape... Billy probably just threw it on here so he wouldn't have to copywrite it separately.

Quote:
Registration Number: PAu-2-055-159
Title: Quiet, & other songs. By William Patrick Corgan.
Note: Statement of incorrect inclusion of a contents title. CONTENTS: Quiet. Kitty kat. Cherub rock. Suicide kiss. Today. Disarm. Rocket. Space boy. Set the ray to Jerry. Whirl. Doorstep. Pissant. Tulips. Hummer. French movie theme
Claimant: Cinderful Music & Chrysalis SongsSREG: PAu 1-699-154, 1992
Effective Registration Date: 27Feb96
Special Codes: 3/M/X
Wow, 1996 and Billy was still fussing over the SD demos? I also think it's strange that the titles weren't updated/fixed. It seems like this registration was only to remove the phrase "a collection of songs for album II. By William Patrick Corgan." Maybe he didn't like the "By William Patrick Corgan", which doesn't give James credit for Mayo?

Quote:
Registration Number: PAu-2-563-902
Title: Lover.
Description: 2 sound cassettes.
Claimant: Faust's Haus Music
Created: 1999
Registered: 15Dec00
Author on Application: music & lyrics: William Corgan , 1967-.
Special Codes: 3/M

Registration Number: SRu-443-533
Title: The Smashing Pumpkins.
Description: Sound cassette.
Note: Collection.
Claimant: (c) acSmashing Pumpkins
Created: 1999
Registered: 29Jan01
Title on Application: Lover.
Author on Application: words & music: William Corgan , 1967-.
Special Codes: 3/M
hm... so, 3 cassettes?... I guess one of them could be the MAD that we have. Maybe the first thing was just Billy, and then the 2nd entry is for something recorded by the band.

Quote:
Registration Number: PAu-2-571-960
Title: William Corgan demo.
Description: Sound cassette.
Note: Collection.
Claimant: Faust's Haus Music
Created: 2001
Registered: 13Aug01
Title on Application: Isn't it?
Author on Application: words & music: William Corgan , 1967-
Special Codes: 3/M

Registration Number: SRu-459-981
Title: Isn't it?
Description: Sound cassette.
Note: Collection.
Claimant: (c) on music, words; acWilliam Corgan , 1967-
Created: 2001
Registered: 13Aug01
Special Codes: 3/M

Registration Number: PAu-2-619-320
Title: Where nobody knows my name.
Description: Sound cassette.
Note: Collection.
Claimant: Faust's Haus Music
Created: 2001
Registered: 13Aug01
Author on Application: words & music: William Corgan , 1967-.
Special Codes: 3/M

Registration Number: SRu-460-258
Title: Jesus won't you come?
Description: Sound cassette.
Note: Collection.
Claimant: (c) on words, music; acWilliam Corgan , 1967-
Created: 2001
Registered: 13Aug01
Special Codes: 3/M
Cool.

Quote:
Registration Number: PAu-1-996-806
Title: A collection of demos for Billy Corgan : demo no. 1.
Description: Sound cassette.
Claimant: Cinderful Music
Created: 1988
Registered: 26Jun95
Author on Application: words & music: William Patrick Corgan.
Special Codes: 3/M

Title: A collection of demos for Billy Corgan : demo no. 2.
Created: 1989

Title: A collection of demos for Billy Corgan : demo no. 3.
Created: 1990

Title: A collection of demos for Billy Corgan : demo no. 4.
Created: 1991

Title: A collection of demos for Billy Corgan : demo no. 5.
Created: 1992

Title: A collection of demos for Billy Corgan : demo no. 6.
Created: 1993

Title: A collection of demos for Billy Corgan : demo no. 7.
Created: 1994
Okay, here we go... I think we've now discovered the true "holy grail". If this had been five tapes, then I would have said it's probably MP... but 7 tapes of demos, one from each year? And these don't mention the Pumpkins... maybe they're BC solo demos? I wouldn't doubt it. I imagine him in 1995, going through all his tapes from over the years, to copywrite all of his songs that didn't get copywrited with the band. You know, songs like Oui Henri and Worship.

Now I can go to sleep.

Last edited by Smiley : 01-15-2003 at 07:07 AM.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 09:51 AM   #11
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I'd definately go for the full Pistachio medley.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 01:41 PM   #12
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What we really need to do is get Lawrence Lessig to destroy the copyright laws. The sooner those things go public domain, the sooner they can legally be listened to.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 03:30 PM   #13
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Default Many of you have some good things as the "next holy grail" BUT

I usually don't post a lot, but I have an interest now. My heart has been pumping a little quicker lately knowing I will be seeing Zwan play on Sunday (thanks to a good friend). Seeing them on Sunday, and hopefully Monday, will mark the 12th straight year I have seen Billy perform live in person. I guess I am getting a little nostalgic, and reading this post makes me think of a lot things.

I like what a lot of people have put, and all would be great to have. I am not disbuting anything. I would love everything, but I really like video stuff. So, the 25 songs O'pumpkins would be great. Also, if you watch clips in Viewphoria, there are a lot of video shots from the 1988-1990 time period. Somewhere, someone has copies of those entire videos. I remember Dave A. saying he knew of a guy who has about 5 or 6 shows on video from 1989-1990 period. Wow, how about those.

What about a complete video of the Pulse Cable Access show? I still don't know all the songs played there?

Or, what about the following.

1988 - Billy's father's home studio

My Dahlia (Break)
There It Goes
Under Your Spell
Armed to the Teeth
Screaming
Sun
Holiday
I Fall

About 12 songs were recorded by Billy and James, using a drum machine. My Dahlia was at this time titled Break; Sun was called Death of a Mind and featured an alternate chorus.
(Taken from Jesse Miller's recording sessions)

Now I am assuming There It Goes and Under Your Spell on MP are from these sessions, but what about getting these other songs.

Or, from individual songs, what about Adore version of Let Me Give The World To You or a studio version of She (drool).

I am sure I left something out, there is just so much Billy has created and provided us.

There are a bunch of things, many of which I believe none of us even know about. I believe Billy has things even he forgot about, and that only he knows about.

Anyway, I am in my glory to have MP, as hopefully we all are.

Some people have brought some great things to my attention, hopefully I brought a few others to people's attention.

We can argue and discuss what could/would/should be the "next holy grail", but in the big picture, it really doesn't matter. It is just something fun to think and dream about getting or hearing.
Can you remember how you felt the first time you heard She from RTS, then how you felt when Billy abandoned it. Or the first time you heard Jackboot on Gravity Demos. It was all so great. So many memories and feelings. Either way, we are so lucky to have a proliphic singer/songwriter as Billy Corgan. If he never releases another thing, I feel so fortunate to be able to listen to what he has provided us. Don't ever take for granted what we all have, regardless if it is a common recording of something like 8/14/93 or 1/8/97, or something that at the time was new and fresh like RTS, Gravity Demos, or 10/5/88. Sure, there are things out there we all want like the Pulse Cable Access show, the pyscho video, the Hideout shows, Avalon, Adore tour rehearsal tapes, 88 demos, etc. This is all fun to talk about, but I will be happy, satisfied, and thankful even if nothing ever again gets released (officially or unofficially).

Sorry for the ranting, but the idea of Zwan's new album and shows at the Metro get me really excited, like a kid in a candy story. Like the first time I heard I ever heard SP.

Brian

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 03:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by sarmatianus
What we really need to do is get Lawrence Lessig to destroy the copyright laws. The sooner those things go public domain, the sooner they can legally be listened to.
Yeah, well, if BC doesn't touch the copyrights on that 7-tape demo fiesta (which I too agree should be the next holy grail... though it looks like we're kinda fucked on it) we only got 19 years before they become public domain. Can we just waltz in, listen & record them at that point? Cause hey, I'll only be 38 when that happens.

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Old 01-15-2003, 06:41 PM   #15
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So... what about this?

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=p...iprimus.com.au

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 08:46 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by sarmatianus
Security procedures for the entire LoC campus of buildings, as well as penalties for violations are stringent enough to scare away, well, anyone with either or a brain or anything less than secret agent skills.
I bet you Monte could monte that shit.
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Old 01-15-2003, 08:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smiley
No, 25 Songs O' Pumpkins is also commonly known as the "Psycho" video. It has I'm Free, My Dahlia (rehearsal), Sun, Spiteface, Venus In Furs, Jennifer Ever, I Am One, Rhinoceros, There it Goes, She, My Eternity, Billy and Bob at Geraldo, all of 10/31/89, and some Marked stuff. *drools*

I guess I'm missing 4 of the songs in my little list there, to make the total of 25... can anybody tell me what's on there that I don't know about?
There are also some serial killer interviews, and a dancing gorilla.

http://members.rogers.com/deadster/leet.jpg

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 09:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Muehlhaus
Or, what about the following.

1988 - Billy's father's home studio

My Dahlia (Break)
There It Goes
Under Your Spell
Armed to the Teeth
Screaming
Sun
Holiday
I Fall

About 12 songs were recorded by Billy and James, using a drum machine.

Now I am assuming There It Goes and Under Your Spell on MP are from these sessions, but what about getting these other songs.
I believe that My Dahlia on MP is from this session in addition to Under Your Spell. I don't know about There It Goes.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 10:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by MstrGhost
So... what about this?

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=p...iprimus.com.au
It was found to be a troll.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 10:44 PM   #20
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Default Re: 2022 is gonna be a good year

Quote:
Originally posted by Sehki


Yeah, well, if BC doesn't touch the copyrights on that 7-tape demo fiesta (which I too agree should be the next holy grail... though it looks like we're kinda fucked on it) we only got 19 years before they become public domain. Can we just waltz in, listen & record them at that point? Cause hey, I'll only be 38 when that happens.
No...with current copyright US standards, we'd have to wait until 70 years after Billy dies. As you can see, the likelihood of anyone here surviving that (even if he were to die today) is slim to none. And even if you did, would you still care?

Now, if it was a copyright registered in Europe, then it'd be 50 years from registration, death or not. But being as these tapes are probably sitting in a warehouse somewhere in Northern Virginia, I wouldn't hold my hopes up. Plus, even if they had proper equipment to play cassettes by then, don't you think they'd be in terrible condition regardless?

Sorry to be a pessimist about this, but either copyright laws are gonna have to change, or someone's gonna have to be charitable, otherwise we're not going to hear these. It'll be a rock history graduate student 100 years from now who'll be the first to get to hear these, given the current conditions.

 
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Old 01-15-2003, 11:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dead

There are also some serial killer interviews, and a dancing gorilla.

http://members.rogers.com/deadster/leet.jpg
a dancing gorilla? cool! and the two serial killer interviews are part of the segment of Billy and Bob at Geraldo, right?

but hey... that pic proves nothing! It could be from vieuphoria or full circle!! nobody believes you! So I guess you have no choice - you'll have to convert the whle thing to VCD and put it on the hub. ok?

Quote:
Originally posted by sarmatianus
No...with current copyright US standards, we'd have to wait until 70 years after Billy dies.
So all I'd have to do is kill Billy Corgan and then wait until I'm 91? Sweet! If Netphoria is still around in 2073, I'll post a full review.

 
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Old 01-16-2003, 02:23 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smiley
that pic proves nothing! It could be from vieuphoria or full circle!! nobody believes you! So I guess you have no choice - you'll have to convert the whle thing to VCD and put it on the hub. ok?
IF I had it, I wouldn't VCD it. I would DVD it!
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Old 01-16-2003, 05:08 AM   #23
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Default Re: Many of you have some good things as the "next holy grail" BUT

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Muehlhaus
Can you remember how you felt the first time you heard She from RTS, then how you felt when Billy abandoned it.
It's funny you say this. I remember hearing RTS She and about pissed my pants. I couldn't believe it - ACOUSTIC SHE. And it sounded so good. Then...."She....awww fuck...ahhh...so hard to play this......let's just forget it". AHHHHHHHH. NOOOOOOO.

That's about how I felt right at that point. I still like hearing the whole what, minute fifteen or so of the song and it still blows my mind how good it sounds.

Oh well. Just my two cents.

 
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Old 01-16-2003, 05:39 AM   #24
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the pro shot footage of the 1995 double door shows would be beautiful. uncut. all four.

let's see, they played ugly, speed, meladori magpie, set the ray to jerry, love, towers of rabble, stumbleine...

and christ, we don't even know the setlist for 2/20.

 
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Old 01-16-2003, 12:55 PM   #25
Halteh
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Smiley

but hey... that pic proves nothing! It could be from vieuphoria or full circle!! nobody believes you!
Woah, my tv is on the internet!!
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Old 01-16-2003, 04:06 PM   #26
Dead
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Red face Ain't it funky how we pretend we're still a child?

Quote:
Originally posted by Halteh
Woah, my tv is on the internet!!
http://www.emotioneric.com/sassy.jpg
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I like video games, Spider-Man, and long walks on the beach.

 
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Old 01-16-2003, 04:40 PM   #27
Smiley
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Quote:
Originally posted by Halteh
Woah, my tv is on the internet!!
heh... this just gave me an idea for a new topic here... "leet pic post". But I don't think I'll do it.

 
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Old 01-16-2003, 05:41 PM   #28
Dead
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Cool I will.

Quote:
Originally posted by Smiley
heh... this just gave me an idea for a new topic here... "leet pic post".
http://members.rogers.com/deadster/fbs.jpg
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I like video games, Spider-Man, and long walks on the beach.

 
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Old 01-16-2003, 07:23 PM   #29
Smiley
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Default Re: I will.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dead

http://members.rogers.com/deadster/fbs.jpg
Please explain to me, is that 1991 video part of FBS? I REALLY didn't think it was. The 1992 one is "FBS 1" and the 1993 one is "FBS 2", so.... ?

 
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Old 01-16-2003, 11:35 PM   #30
youthinkyouknow
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Default Re: I will.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dead

http://members.rogers.com/deadster/fbs.jpg
you mean...


http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL11/8...9/18599892.jpg



http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL11/8...9/18599887.jpg

 
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