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Old 08-16-2020, 12:36 PM   #61
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Old 08-16-2020, 01:15 PM   #62
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all for being critical of biden (not praising trump, either)
They never said that. Someone else did.

 
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Old 08-16-2020, 02:46 PM   #63
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Something in italic

 
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Old 08-16-2020, 02:50 PM   #64
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Exactly. I wish more people got this, but the media is powerful in controlling the narrative for sure. I only started getting it myself in 2019. I know more people can do the same, it just takes some effort.
I don't know anyone that thinks electing Biden automatically fixes things. All it initially does is stop Trump's antics. There's a shit ton of work to do after Trump's gone that needs to be done. But none of what needs to be done can be done or will be done with Trump and McConnell in charge

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Old 08-16-2020, 04:58 PM   #65
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all for being critical of biden (not praising trump, either)
Ur so coll

 
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Old 08-16-2020, 07:39 PM   #66
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In parliamentary systems most people get a prime minister or president who they didn't vote for and don't agree with. Parties with less than majority support often end up running things. It's not necessarily a fix.
The thing with our prime minister, for example, is that her vote in our chambers of government is worth no more than that of even a lowly backbencher sitting in opposition. With the Mixed Member Proportional voting system that we utilize, it also "ensures" representation to the effect that any party gaining a minimum 5.00% of the popular vote must therefore account for 5.00% of those in the house. It's not perfection, but the effect is like guardrails for a democratic outcome.

Incidentally, Jacinda's party received only 36.89% of the popular vote and were thereby forced to form a minority government with two other parties in order to get above the threshold for power (just as you've indicated). The result of this, even so, has been that three parties with divergent platforms must run the country together through cooperation and power cannot be monopolized by any one group. Rather than a choice between two candidates from the same two parties, we can vote in any direction (e.g. for indigenous rights in the Māori Party to redundant single issue parties like the Aoeteoroa Legalise Cannabis Party or through to Tea Party New Zealand*) and generally expect that our votes do go somewhere.

[* Thanks, America.]

 
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Old 08-16-2020, 08:29 PM   #67
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That sounds more like an endorsement of MMP in particular than parliamentary systems more broadly.

I live in a parliamentary system, but it's first-past-the-post. As such, much like the United States, we've mostly devolved into a two-party system (we have more parties in parliament and have been called a "two-party plus" system because a third party manages to get a significant share of seats, though has never formed government) where we have a barely meaningful choice between a centrist party and a centre-right party. The reality of vote-splitting means that people who identify more closely with one of the more leftist parties will often have to vote for the centrist candidate in their riding in order to best prevent the right-wing candidate from winning.

The fact that we vote for local representatives, and that the party with the most representatives in parliament typically forms government with their leader as prime minister, does nothing to lessen the power or the prime minister in relation to the members of parliaments'. There is a strong party whip, and individual MPs almost always have to vote with the party instead of in the interests of their ridings (whereas an American congressperson can almost act like an independent, being free to break away from the party line and vote in the conscience of whatever corporation that's assumed the role of his Jiminy Cricket). In fact, the synonymity of the party leader with their respective party leads most people to say things like "I voted for Justin Trudeau," even if they live nowhere near his riding and his name was not amongst the options on their ballots. A Canadian Prime Minister actually has more power in Canadian politics than an American President has in the United States, as in a parliamentary system, there is no division of powers, and the Prime Minister leads both the executive and legislative branches.

This isn't me saying that a parliamentary system is any worse than a presidential system. Both systems work differently, but neither is inherently superior to the other. Whichever one a country has, it can conduct it in various degrees of democratic sensibility. The problems with the American system don't really stem from the fact that it's presidential rather than parliamentary, but rather because of the role of money in politics, the existence of the electoral college, systematic disenfranchisement of disadvantaged groups, and a historical legacy of racism serving as the bedrock for reactionary politics today.

Last edited by Disco King : 08-16-2020 at 09:03 PM. Reason: Compose on mobile, edit on PC

 
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:05 PM   #68
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I like saviours who didn't die.

 
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:09 PM   #69
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good post labelle

@daveanthony is a great follow on twitter for more of this shit. the democrats are lowkey just as fucking terrible as republicans, but i guess outwardly less. [not trying to get m4a during a fucking p a n d e m i c]

trump is going to win because there are a lot of very fucking stupid and/or evil people in this country.

 
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:51 PM   #70
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That sounds more like an endorsement of MMP in particular than parliamentary systems more broadly.
Rather than advocate for a parliamentary system in the United States, I was more curious to hear whether and why people support a presidential one. References to the alternative with which I am most familiar were only in response to the line I had quoted, where the drawbacks suggested did not appear to apply. I would never push for the compulsory preferential voting system of Australia and see it as producing America-esque outcomes, but any discussion of parliamentary systems would still need to consider that as well as MMP as options.

I'd be curious to hear more about how a Canadian prime minister has more power than an American president, though. How do executive orders factor into that or how (i.e. via what mechanism) might a Canadian prime minister go about achieving an objective in the case that it lacks the requisite support?

 
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Old 08-16-2020, 10:07 PM   #71
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I like saviours who didn't die.

 
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Old 08-16-2020, 11:30 PM   #72
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[refocusing on the original topic]

I agree with much of the sentiment expressed in LaBelle's post, but also see the coming election results framed as either endorsing or condemning the Trump administration. My impression is that, from a strategic point of view, Biden does best by simply being a person that is not Donald Trump in much the same way that Donald was anybody other than Hillary. It makes a lot of sense to be bitterly disappointed by this and by the fact that, from such an unfortunate position, you must then either play it where it lies or take the penalty.

To the political class, the voter can communicate one of the following two things:
1.) we're ultimately going to tolerate and effectively reward what we've seen over the past four years; or
2.) that was fucked enough to warrant the fairly rare outcome of a one-term presidency and all the damage to the party's objectives that'll do

Given that it's a numbers game with little room for nuance, which message would you rather American politicians hear regardless of their own identities or group affiliations?

 
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Old 08-16-2020, 11:33 PM   #73
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Things not successfully communicated in the form of any one presidential election vote:
- we deserve better candidates

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:25 AM   #74
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When you all insist Biden is miles better than Trump you ignore the fact that Biden is likely to kill more people overseas. Trump is without a doubt a war criminal (his handling of Yemen comes to mind), but Obama (who Biden worked with) was easily worse in terms of lives lost overseas (I’m aware Obama was a LOT better than Trump domestically, so no need to point this out to me). Those people in the Middle East matter too, let’s not forget about them. I’m not telling you to vote for Trump, obviously, dude is evil and I do understand the motivation to vote for Biden, especially due to his economic policies that will undoubtedly fuck the working class less than Trump’s. I’m trying to get you guys to really think about what you’re saying though.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:27 AM   #75
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Proportional representation vs first past the post has been debated by people qualified to do so. Both have benefits. What matters is the type of action you expect from your government.

I think the US should give sortition a try. Basically pull a random ballot. In theory you could write in anyone and that person has an extremely small chance of actually winning.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:30 AM   #76
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When you all insist Biden is miles better than Trump you ignore the fact that Biden is likely to kill more people overseas. Trump is without a doubt a war criminal (his handling of Yemen comes to mind), but Obama (who Biden worked with) was easily worse in terms of lives lost overseas (Iím aware Obama was a LOT better than Trump domestically, so no need to point this out to me). Those people in the Middle East matter too, letís not forget about them. Iím not telling you to vote for Trump, obviously, dude is evil and I do understand the motivation to vote for Biden, especially due to his economic policies that will undoubtedly fuck the working class less than Trumpís. Iím trying to get you guys to really think about what youíre saying though.
Have you seen the numbers for US troops overseas and what happened in Syria under Trump or are you strictly regurgitating memes from the internet?

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:30 AM   #77
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That woman in the pink with the kid looks possessed.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:33 AM   #78
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Have you seen the numbers for US troops overseas and what happened in Syria under Trump or are you strictly regurgitating memes from the internet?
Are you aware Obama started something like 5 new conflicts/wars? Why are we in Syria? Who put us there?
Trump has tried to withdraw troops a few times I believe and been met with resistance. I canít believe youíre making me defend him, but if youíre going to ignore reality, Iíll have to.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:37 AM   #79
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Are you suggesting US presence in Syria would’ve resulted in a higher loss of life as opposed to the alternative?

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:39 AM   #80
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There was a civil war and the US intervened. I ask you, honestly, were you aware of this when you started?

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:45 AM   #81
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There was a civil war and the US intervened. I ask you, honestly, were you aware of this when you started?
Who made us the world police? There are ways to deal with this without using violence. Iím sick of war, itís a primitive act.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:52 AM   #82
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Yeah you made a mistake, just admit it. It wasn’t a conflict the US started.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:53 AM   #83
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“Just let the free market sort out ISIL.”

Now that’s leadership!

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:48 AM   #84
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Are you aware Obama started something like 5 new conflicts/wars? Why are we in Syria? Who put us there?
Trump has tried to withdraw troops a few times I believe and been met with resistance. I can’t believe you’re making me defend him, but if you’re going to ignore reality, I’ll have to.
Trump is wreaking havoc all over the world. He hasn't pulled the US out of the "wars" he said he would end (Afganistan, Iraq, etc. the US military is still there). He's pushing the US more and more toward war with Iran. He has isolated the US from our closest allies. He has created a cold war with China that could easily escalate into military conflict. He has called for expanding Guantanamo. He is praising and coddling the worst dictators in the world. He's colluding with Putin to aid the destruction of our electoral system. He's operating hundreds of concentration camps. Etc etc etc

The idea that he is somehow less bad at colonialism or war or murder or death than Obama is ridiculous. The reality is that this guy is a monster who is conducting genocide and ethnic cleansing on a massive scale.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 10:10 AM   #85
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If only we could have Bernie Sanders in president we could kumbaya with isis and America could ascend to a higher plane of consciousness

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 10:15 AM   #86
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Then we can eliminate the corrupt world of democratic politics altogether and replace it with a talking point meme factory run by aoc and jill stein

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 11:29 AM   #87
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We can stop the massacre of civilians through the use of our enormous economic might. Once used Toyota pickup trucks stop making it into enemy hands, they’ll have to rely on golf carts to navigate deserts and jungles. And soon after that, the inconvenience of travel and the rising cost of firearms will stop genocides altogether. You buffoons and your oafish militaries are outdated equipment for the modern world. It’s high time we stop policing the world and continuing the colonialist practices of directing the world’s course, and we can take a back seat to fellas like Putin and Jinping.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 11:33 AM   #88
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I putin'd your dad's jinping.




 
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Old 08-17-2020, 11:36 AM   #89
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ďJust let the free market sort out ISIL.Ē

Now thatís leadership!
Itís adorable you think Iím a libertarian. Fuck capitalism. Iím a fucking socialist, dude.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 11:38 AM   #90
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If only we could have Bernie Sanders in president we could kumbaya with isis and America could ascend to a higher plane of consciousness
Lol you guys get so salty about Bernie and for what? Being a decent human being?

 
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