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Old 12-27-2014, 05:39 PM   #1
slunken
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Default question about zwan songwriting credits

el sol, ride a black swan, and jesus i/mary all have co-writing credits as "traditional". what are these lyrics/songs originally sourced from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_St...#Track_listing

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 05:50 PM   #2
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The El Sol line "A little sunshine just to butter my toast" comes from the old expression, "butter my toast with sunshine!" which was a code to request sodomy in 16th century London.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 05:56 PM   #3
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The lyrics from "Jesus, I" are from an old hymn called, "Jesus, I have taken my cross."

Here's the original hymn: https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/460

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 06:03 PM   #4
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thanks for that link. i remember that one being from a hymn (but couldn't remember the exact one so thanks again) but never noticed the credits for the other songs. those are the ones i'm more interested in.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 06:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Henry Francis Lyte was the 2nd son of Thomas and Anna Lyte. He was born at Ednam, Scotland. Lyte's father was described as a "ne-er do-well ... more interested in fishing and shooting than in facing up to his family responsibilities". He deserted the family shortly after making arrangements for his two oldest sons to attend Portora Royal School; and Anna moved to London, where both she and her youngest son died.

The headmaster at Portora, Dr. Robert Burrowes, recognized Henry Lyte's ability, paid the boyís fees, and "welcomed him into his own family during the holidays." Lyte was effectively an adopted son.

After studying at Trinity College, Dublin and with very limited training for the ministry, Lyte took Anglican holy orders in 1815, and for some time he held a curacy in Taghmon. Lyte's "sense of vocation was vague at this early stage. Perhaps he felt an indefinable desire to do something good in life." However, in about 1816, Lyte experienced an evangelical conversion. In attendance on a dying priest, the latter convinced Lyte that both had earlier been mistaken in not having taken the Epistles of St. Paul "in their plain and literal sense." Lyte says of him, "He died happy under the belief that though he had deeply erred, there was One whose death and sufferings would atone for his delinquencies, and be accepted for all that he had incurred;" and concerning himself he adds: "I was greatly affected by the whole matter, and brought to look at life and its issue with a different eye than before; and I began to study my Bible, and preach in another manner than I had previously done."

Lyte began to study the Bible "and preach in another manner," following the example of four or five local clergymen whom he had previously laughed at and considered "enthusiastic rhapsodists."

In 1817 Lyte became a curate in Marazion, Cornwall, and there met and married Anne Maxwell, daughter of a well-known Scottish-Irish family. She was 31, seven years older than her husband and a "keen Methodist." Furthermore, she "could not match her husband's good looks and personal charm." Nevertheless, the marriage was happy and successful.

About 1824, Lyte moved to Lower Brixham, a Devon fishing village. Almost immediately, Lyte joined the schools committee, and two months later he became its chairman. Also in 1824, Lyte established the first Sunday school in the Torbay area and created a Sailors' Sunday School. Although religious instruction was given there, the primary object of both was educating children and seamen for whom other schooling was virtually impossible. Each year Lyte organized an Annual Treat for the 800-1000 Sunday school children, which included a short religious service followed by tea and sports in the field.

Shortly after Lyte's arrival in Brixham, the minister attracted such large crowds that the church had to be enlargedóthe resulting structure later described by his grandson as "a hideous barn-like building." Lyte added to his clerical income by taking resident pupils into his home, including the blind brother of Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, later British prime minister.

Lyte was a tall and "unusually handsome" man, "slightly eccentric but of great personal charm, a man noted for his wit and human understanding, a born poet and an able scholar." He was an expert flute player and according to his great-grandson always had his flute with him. Lyte spoke Latin, Greek, and French; enjoyed discussing literature; and was knowledgeable about wild flowers. At a former military hospital at Berry Head, Lyte built a magnificent libraryólargely of theology and old English poetryódescribed in his obituary as "one of the most extensive and valuable in the West of England."

Nevertheless, Lyte was also able to identify with his parish of fishermen, visiting them at their homes and on board their ships in harbor, supplying every vessel with a Bible, and compiling songs and a manual of devotions for use at sea. In theology Lyte was a conservative evangelical who believed that that man's nature was totally corrupt. Lyte frequently rose at 6 AM and prayed for two or more hours before breakfast.

In politics, Lyte was a Conservative who feared revolt among the irreligious poor. He publicly opposed Catholic Emancipation by speaking against it in several Devon towns, stating that he preferred Catholics to be "emancipated from priests and from the power of the factious and turbulent demagogues of Ireland." Lyte, a friend of Samuel Wilberforce, also opposed slavery, organizing an 1833 petition to Parliament requesting it be abolished in Great Britain.

In poor health throughout his life, Lyte suffered various respiratory illnesses and often visited continental Europe in attempts to check their progress. In 1835 Lyte sought appointment as the vicar of Crediton but was rejected because of his increasingly debilitating asthma and bronchitis. In 1839, when only 46, Lyte wrote a poem entitled "Declining Days." Lyte also grew discouraged when numbers of his congregation (including in 1846, nearly his entire choir) left him for Dissenter congregations, especially the Plymouth Brethren, after Lyte expressed High Church sympathies and leaned toward the Oxford Movement. - Wikipedia and Dictionary of Hymnology by Julian
this is interesting if you like this sort of thing

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:18 PM   #6
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Iím not sure about the other two, Iíve wondered the same but Iíve never come across any information about it. My guess is that itís from some obscure recording from some lesser known jazz, gospel or folk artist. The African American hymns and folk songs tend to be lesser known, I mean people are still disputing the origins of sinnerman.

I quite liked a number of his Zwan era lyrics. I really like the lyrics to Ride a Black Swan, the simple chorus alone is pretty nice.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araneae View Post
Iím not sure about the other two, Iíve wondered the same but Iíve never come across any information about it. My guess is that itís from some obscure recording from some lesser known jazz, gospel or folk artist. The African American hymns and folk songs tend to be lesser known, I mean people are still disputing the origins of sinnerman.
yea i know what you mean but i'm interested in knowing what specific lyrics (or maybe its even the arrangement of the music for all i know) are borrowed from what specific "thing", regardless of being able to track down "who did first." you know what i mean? those are two different things.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:22 PM   #8
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i maybe thought by now someone had tracked all of this down. i tried browsing amsp a day or so ago but it was weird on an ipad

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:47 PM   #9
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I know what you mean, my origins comment was just me trying to illustrate how obscure African American folk songs can be as opposed to Anglican hymns.

Iíve searched and asked around in the past and Iíve not come across any information about the other two. The lack of information also made me wonder if the arrangement and not the lyrics are traditional.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:48 PM   #10
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so puzzling

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:50 PM   #11
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these would have been great (maybe?) for the AMA

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:50 PM   #12
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story o my life doe : a day late and a dollar short

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:50 PM   #13
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I would have a hard time actually tracking it down, but I specifically remember an interview where Billy said a good number of the songs that ended up on the Zwan record came from a church hymnal he found in Yelena's house.

He said he started reading the lyrics, and because he could not read music, started making up his own chord progressions to them.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:51 PM   #14
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coulda been my key to gatekeeper status

coulda been standing there with mah arms folded

judging folks

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themadcaplaughs View Post
I would have a hard time actually tracking it down, but I specifically remember an interview where Billy said a good number of the songs that ended up on the Zwan record came from a church hymnal he found in Yelena's house.

He said he started reading the lyrics, and because he could not read music, started making up his own chord progressions to them.
i thought that was for the folk songs re: chicago songs. it was folk song books, not necessarily religious.

but then again i guess that would apply to djali zwan songs too. i never thought of it like that before.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:53 PM   #16
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i've been meaning to brush up on zwan era print articles but i remember the article yr referencing

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:59 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by slunken View Post
i thought that was for the folk songs re: chicago songs. it was folk song books, not necessarily religious.
It was from the Chicago songs era, from what I remember. He had some blog going on his friends website, Integral something. I think they were folk songs. At the time Yelena was working on her paintings that were inspired by Ukrainian folk stories.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:00 PM   #18
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integral naked was the site

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:02 PM   #19
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I always thought some of the album song choices had to do with cutting out co-writing credits from the pajo and sweeny.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:07 PM   #20
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Given the songs that ended up on the album I wondered that as well. Weren't the other members upset? I remember either Sweeny or Pajo saying that Billy told them they needed a more pop rock record to get peoples attention, and that then they were supposedly going to release the Djali Zwan material after.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:19 PM   #21
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yea i remember some of the audio interviews on archive (there aren't many for zwan) and billy talks specifically about how there are songs that are going to be on the album taht are co-written by all/some members of the band but then on the album when it actually comes out there is only i think one (settle down).

i'm telling you guys - it was the managers fault - eilliott roberts aka "the only manager that needs a manager"

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:20 PM   #22
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musicians in bands don't decide what songs make the albums, that's what producers are for.

mary star - produced by billy & bjorn.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:21 PM   #23
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he played on billy's grandiose sensibilities and turned him into the bona-fide business butthole he is known for

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:21 PM   #24
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there you go - bjorns name again

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:29 PM   #25
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I remember people freaking out when they first heard ďDanger Boy,Ē some going as far to say it was the best thing that Billy had done in a long time...only to then find out that it was written by Sweeny and Pajo.

Billy doesnít like to share credit; he canít have anyone disputing his role as a genius. It still amazes me how angry he gets when people say that mayo is their favorite song. He has now disowned the song just because he shares a credit with James.

 
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Old 12-27-2014, 10:21 PM   #26
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He's done instrumentals on the reissues for Soma, Take Me Down, and Summer

But he sings on Soma

What does it mean

find out next

 
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Old 12-28-2014, 01:17 AM   #27
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Guess we'll have to wait for the Zwan boxset

 
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Old 12-29-2014, 11:26 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araneae View Post
I remember either Sweeny or Pajo saying that Billy told them they needed a more pop rock record to get peoples attention, and that then they were supposedly going to release the Djali Zwan material after.
I fucking hate Billy for that.

 
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Old 12-29-2014, 11:28 AM   #29
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Dear Corg,

Please stop shitting on your own career.

 
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:06 PM   #30
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The djalinzwan stuff was supposed to be a dvd release. I cant help but wonder if bcs subsequent plans about the chicagonsongs was just another version of that same idea sunce zwan broke up.

Everybody wanted to know what happened to the acoustic material when mary star of the sea came out.

 
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