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Old 11-08-2017, 05:17 PM   #61
AveryLoren
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I've said it before but I think had Jimmy stayed in the band and their next album been more like Eye and TBitEiTB it would have sold a lot better. They could have captured that electro-rock sound a few years before it became mainstream. Their would have been a drop in fans regardless as those years where transitional for all popular acts but they wouldn't have had such a harsh drop like they did. I absolutely love Adore as is but it is a niche of a niche.

 
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Old 11-08-2017, 05:21 PM   #62
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I also made my own more electronic Adore that gives it a bit more edge

08 Waiting
Your damn right!

But yeah, decent tracklisting - it needed to be more consistently upbeat and less quiet, plodding and self-indulgent.

It's a problem the band repeated with Machina. I like Machina more than most, but when Billy was sat on songs of Machina 2 calibre... what the fuck was HMM, BSBT and Crying Tree doing on a commercial record!?! In place of Home, Vanity, Real Love, Go, Slow Dawn, Dross, Atom Bomb etc...etc... The artwork and title for M2 was far better too...

Last edited by Woody : 11-08-2017 at 05:32 PM.

 
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Old 11-08-2017, 09:13 PM   #63
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Does anyone remember the secret websites during the post MACHINA era? I remember people thinking it was going to be about the band reuniting. That's something I don't see discussed anymore either.

 
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:29 AM   #64
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There's an increasing amount of iffy stuff on this one though which followed a pattern set by Machina and continued onwards... Heartsong, [...] Desire, and Of A Broken Heart are all pretty bleh and could have been replaced by much stronger songs.
these are 3 of the best on the album, lol

in any case, this is officially the first year i've actually listened to MSOTS in full & enjoyed it -not every track or moment but, for the most part, i definitely like it more than i ever have before. not quite as "super-happy" as some make it out to be, though i could do without the occasional Christian brochure lyrics, but even tracks i'm not entirely sold on as a whole, like "Endless Summer" have these classic Corgan/Chamberlin interplay parts that make it worth listening to

 
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Old 11-09-2017, 02:02 PM   #65
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for people that were around, when did the mood turn on Zwan? obviously the 2001 shows were amazing and well received, as were the spring 2002 shows. what were the first signs- was there a show or a moment before the record leaked where things started declining?

 
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Old 11-09-2017, 02:15 PM   #66
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for people that were around, when did the mood turn on Zwan? obviously the 2001 shows were amazing and well received, as were the spring 2002 shows. what were the first signs- was there a show or a moment before the record leaked where things started declining?
I think there were some reservations once Paz joined and they started playing Yeah! and Baby! Let's Rock... but it was when the tracklist and album leaked that the mood turned - I think initially a lot of fans liked the album, but the clipping and "loud at any volume" was an issue. That and the number of songs completely ignored. There were some bizarre live appearances around that time - promoting the album with new tracks Riverview and Spilled Milk, neither of which were on the album, and the latter was monotonous on a Heavy Metal Machine level... and only really worked when it had proggy sections, not as a single riff repeated for 6 minutes. Anyway, people hated the Lyric video, and then the album bombed and the band imploded in a cloud of hostility.

So broadly speaking, it was the album.

But people were still warm to the band as they played that French acoustic show, which was amazing, not long before they split.

 
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:26 PM   #67
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Zwan's first album should've been self-titled and released early '02. The cover should've just been logo in gold on a black background. The tracklisting should've been the Glasshouse show setlist. They would've been a credible indie, alt band like QOTSA, Audioslave, White Stripes etc



Instead Billy made this saccharine cheese fest that he somehow thought a mainstream pop audience would buy.
this is a really good idea - though, seeing as i'm actually finally coming around to MSOTS and have been listening to it recently, i wouldn't neccesarily push for it to be an alternative debut so much as the 2nd album that sort of "saved them," if such a thing could have even been done in the early 2000s

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:28 AM   #68
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The first time I heard "it's you that I adore, you'll always be my whore" on the radio. Couldn't believe that was my favorite band. I knew Adore as an album would be different, but I still hated this song as the first single.

I did end up liking Adore, and might even rank that whole era above MCIS now (but still behind SD and Gish which I consider the "true" Pumpkins sound) but Ava Adore never worked for me. I still find it one of their most cringe worthy songs. They renewed my faith with the Arising Tour, after hearing all the Arising stuff online (probably the first "live" music I downloaded or was able to listen to online in early '99) I was hyped to see them in 2000 - but again, first time I heard Everlasting Gaze on the radio my reaction was pretty much... "WTF is this shit". Machina as an album never grew on me, they had some good material but it was either dropped from the album or ruined in the studio. They main songs I loved were Dross, BSBT, Speed Kills, Stand Inside Your Love. Only 1 made it to the album pretty much intact, they butchered BSBT and the other two were left off entirely (Speed Kills made a nice b-side, but I preferred the Arising version).

I thought Zwan was OK, more interesting to me than Machina era ended up being. The 2007 album was "ok". I didn't have the same excitement about SP2 though, I've found most of the recent material snooze worthy.

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:38 AM   #69
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Yeah cos ur the one that i adore u will always be my whore was such a drop off in quality from despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage


 
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:38 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Woody View Post
I think there were some reservations once Paz joined and they started playing Yeah! and Baby! Let's Rock... but it was when the tracklist and album leaked that the mood turned - I think initially a lot of fans liked the album, but the clipping and "loud at any volume" was an issue. That and the number of songs completely ignored. There were some bizarre live appearances around that time - promoting the album with new tracks Riverview and Spilled Milk, neither of which were on the album, and the latter was monotonous on a Heavy Metal Machine level... and only really worked when it had proggy sections, not as a single riff repeated for 6 minutes. Anyway, people hated the Lyric video, and then the album bombed and the band imploded in a cloud of hostility.

So broadly speaking, it was the album.

But people were still warm to the band as they played that French acoustic show, which was amazing, not long before they split.
I saw Zwan live and thought it was a fun show, if there were any hostilities in the band at that time it certainly didn't' show at the one I went to.

I think this was around the time I stopped really getting into all the different songs Billy was writing. This is where he seemed to have the mindset of "quantity over quality". All I knew is I liked a bunch of the early Zwan songs, and many of them were never released. Just like Machina, there was material there for a great album (hell, probably 2 or 3 great Zwan albums). But unfortunately it was all ruined in the studio.

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:45 AM   #71
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Yup. Did you see them before or after the album was released?

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:50 AM   #72
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Yeah cos ur the one that i adore was such a drop off in quality from despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage

Yes, that was also cringe worthy line,but the song itself kicked ass.

Of course it might have kicked too much ass as a single, I think overwhelmingly the mainstream started associating them with that angry "rat in a cage" song and pretty much forgot how great Siamese Dream was (or that Siamese Dream was even from the same band). To then go from some of their heaviest songs (BWBW, X.Y.U) to a record like Adore was just unfathomable.

Don't get me wrong - I much prefer Adore now, I can still listen to most of it straight through whereas much of MCIS is borderline unlistenable to me now. However the singles for Adore I always felt were the weak point.

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 01:00 AM   #73
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Most of mcis is borderline unlistenable?


You are not worthy of life.

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 01:07 AM   #74
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Yup. Did you see them before or after the album was released?
Saw them in Orlando in 2003, was apparently a few months after the album. But I remember they seemed to have pretty good energy that night.

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 01:10 AM   #75
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Yeah I saw them on the same tour. They rocked. But those songs suck.

Except Msots. That shit slays.

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 01:10 AM   #76
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Did bElli play a red flying v?

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 01:13 AM   #77
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Most of mcis is borderline unlistenable?


You are not worthy of life.
Like half of it. I'm talking stuff like Tales of a Scorched Earth, or throaways like Farewell+Goodnight. Even X.Y.U, just not my thing anymore.

There's alot of songs on there with juvenile writing. It used to be one of my favorite albums, but as I've grown older it's more of a "love-hate" where I still love some of the songs but despise others.

I suppose if I just took the best songs and made 1 single disc that made sense to me, that would still be a pretty damn great album.

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 03:27 AM   #78
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judging from the songs you just dismissed, i think you'll be better off keeping the one-disc cut down as a private compilation...

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 04:39 AM   #79
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Yeah cos ur the one that i adore u will always be my whore was such a drop off in quality from despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage

the quality might not be worse ultimately, but it sounds misogynistic as fuck

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 05:00 AM   #80
Mals Marola
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somehow i don't think Mr Love's problem with the lyric was a moral dilemma

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 06:36 AM   #81
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This is pretty insane. God's Gonna Set this World on Fire is freakin' nuts.

 
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:56 PM   #82
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It's amazing how much ill-will Zwan's terribly-produced and poorly-sequenced album brought to the band. Everything else they did, from the first shows to the last, had a real spark and true talent. The album is such a poor representation of who they are and what they did that it still casts a shadow on what was a very fun, and at times very affecting, rock band.

 
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:17 AM   #83
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Adore is pretty inaccessible though, there's a slow tempo to a lot of the songs, many of them worked a lot better live. I think the only chance Adore had of being commercially viable would be to cull the tracklist and running time.

Once Upon A Time
Crestfallen
Tear
Annie-Dog
Shame

I like these tracks individually but they grind the momentum of the record to a fucking standstill.

Adore Alt-90's Commercial Success Edition:

To Sheila
Ava Adore
Perfect
Daphne Descends
Appels & Oranjes
Pug
Dusty & Pistol Pete
Behold! The Night Mare
Waiting
For Martha
Blank Page
17
Bonus: Let Me Give The World To You
Adore is my second-fave Pumpkins record exactly because it's slow-burning and long. I see what you're saying that the momentum of the record changes and moves at a glacial pace at times, but partly because of those things that I love it. I didn't like it at first in 1998, but some time after the band broke up, maybe early 2001, I just fell head over heels for it.

For whatever reason, the records up to Machina II, I was willing to go on the journey the band was on. Now, not as much. I think that happened some time around the release of Zeitgeist. TheFutureEmbrace album didn't really grab me, but the live shows were great.

What I'd really like is for the Pumpkins, if they're coming back intact in 2018, to just be the band they are now. Not try to recapture whatever accolades or sales they did back in the 90s. It'd just be sad to watch them/ him try to do that.

 
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:20 AM   #84
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I just noticed that someone uploaded the full Blue Note show:


This was one of the best days of my life. Long-ass drive to Missouri, long-ass wait in line with fellow lunatics, great show at the end of it.

 
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:37 AM   #85
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have you guys not figured out yet that ghostwriters were involved when BiCorg was young and good looking?

 
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:14 AM   #86
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have you guys not figured out yet that ghostwriters were involved when BiCorg was young and good looking?
I think this is quite plausible, likely even, but... where the fuck did the ghostwriters go between MCIS and Adore?!

 
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:50 AM   #87
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Now this I highly doubt.

Corgans definitely an enigma in a lot of ways, but I can't see the guy relying on outside help to write songs.

 
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:14 PM   #88
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I think this is quite plausible, likely even, but... where the fuck did the ghostwriters go between MCIS and Adore?!
BORISHEAVYROCKS!!!

 
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:21 PM   #89
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I think this is quite plausible, likely even, but... where the fuck did the ghostwriters go between MCIS and Adore?!
Billy's last perfect song was Stand Inside Your Love. I'm no insider but it just feels fucky that after the MTV darling era was passed, no more perfect songs happened. I do think Billy is a highly talented composer I just have a nagging suspicion that other experts were involved when SP were golden geese. Gish didn't have perfect songs, but SD, MCIS, Adore and Machina had them

 
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:37 PM   #90
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lol Billy would never in a million years allow ghostwriters. i do think flood had a big hand in arrangements, however

 
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