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Old 05-29-2015, 09:52 AM   #121
MyOneAndOnly
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there are so few people in the USA that actually prescribe to traditional socialism as a philosophical world view that it's pointless to even discuss it. it's mostly a handful of fringe activists and academics. Nobody gives a fuck what any of them thinks, since they're so few and their perspective is not in any way part of the current political conversation in the US. who really gives a shit that a few 60 year old history professors at Berkeley think Bernie Sanders isn't a real socialist?

 
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Old 05-29-2015, 04:15 PM   #122
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bingo, but its young ppl too. i cant show an example because its mostly facebook convos of marxists i know

 
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Old 05-29-2015, 04:15 PM   #123
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and bernie is a real socialist, hes not a "real" marxist

 
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Old 05-29-2015, 04:23 PM   #124
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arguing about whether someone is a real socialist is like arguing whether they're a real Christian.

 
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Old 05-29-2015, 05:40 PM   #125
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It's 2015, Actually Existing Socialism is just for 3rd world orientals and poor browns in latin countries.

 
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Old 05-29-2015, 05:50 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottytheoneand View Post
arguing about whether someone is a real socialist is like arguing whether they're a real Christian.
Words have meaning and ideologies have clear cut doctrines. Bernie Sanders is not a socialist and there's nothing wrong with that. That isn't a "fringe" interpretation of the label, that is the literal interpretation of it. The word you're looking for is Democratic Socialist probably, I haven't really done any research on him.

 
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Old 05-29-2015, 05:58 PM   #127
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What sorts of policies would align with true socialism? Not being snarky.

Like the NHS is a socialist program right? A truly aggressivley progressive tax code and a mandatory living wage? Umm

 
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Old 05-29-2015, 06:22 PM   #128
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honestly trots is probably the best qualified person to answer these questions for us.

 
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Old 05-29-2015, 08:26 PM   #129
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ugh i dont want to even bother with this semantic bullshit

 
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Old 05-29-2015, 08:27 PM   #130
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have you guys considered how nonfunctional our govt would be with prez sanders

 
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Old 05-29-2015, 09:34 PM   #131
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have you guys considered how nonfunctional our govt would be with prez sanders
Moreso than it is now?

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 12:48 AM   #132
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i think so honestly, i'm not sure how.

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:33 AM   #133
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A hypothetical Bernie presidency is hard to envision, because it really depends on what congress would look like for the first two years. If he manages to win the nomination and subsequently invigorates voters into electing him, those voters are very likely to vote straight D's down the ticket. Would a democratic supermajority in congress mean a rubber stamp legislature? No, but we wouldn't have the kind of gridlock we're seeing now.

Think of all the red state voters in the Obamacare coverage gap. They are pretty invariably pissed off at republicans. I'm not sure about the numbers, but I'm pretty sure if you got a decent amount of them to vote, a democratic supermajority would be easily attainable.

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:39 AM   #134
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Look at all those republican senate seats up for grabs.

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 02:16 AM   #135
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does new hampshire vote republican out of tradition

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 02:17 AM   #136
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why are these places their own states i just never fucking understand even france and england have reorganized their administrative divisions

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 09:35 AM   #137
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why are these places their own states i just never fucking understand even france and england have reorganized their administrative divisions
And people want California to break up into multiple states

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 10:51 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Bread Regal View Post
A hypothetical Bernie presidency is hard to envision, because it really depends on what congress would look like for the first two years. If he manages to win the nomination and subsequently invigorates voters into electing him, those voters are very likely to vote straight D's down the ticket. Would a democratic supermajority in congress mean a rubber stamp legislature? No, but we wouldn't have the kind of gridlock we're seeing now.

Think of all the red state voters in the Obamacare coverage gap. They are pretty invariably pissed off at republicans. I'm not sure about the numbers, but I'm pretty sure if you got a decent amount of them to vote, a democratic supermajority would be easily attainable.
Dude

What have you been smoking

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 10:53 AM   #139
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Look at all those republican senate seats up for grabs.
Is this a joke

Alabama Mississippi Louisiana Oklahoma South Carolina Kansas the Dakotas Utah Idaho and kentucky are not "up for grabs."

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 10:55 AM   #140
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Probably not Iowa either. I don't know who is up in AZ and I'm too lazy to look.

Mark Kirk is pretty well liked here. There are not many pickup options here. The idea that dems could have a supermajority is absolutely insane.

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 11:42 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
What sorts of policies would align with true socialism? Not being snarky.

Like the NHS is a socialist program right? A truly aggressivley progressive tax code and a mandatory living wage? Umm
from Websters

: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 11:54 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Mayfuck View Post
Words have meaning and ideologies have clear cut doctrines. Bernie Sanders is not a socialist and there's nothing wrong with that. That isn't a "fringe" interpretation of the label, that is the literal interpretation of it. The word you're looking for is Democratic Socialist probably, I haven't really done any research on him.
Sanders is much closer to the perspective of DSA, which was originally created to advocate for socialist principles within the Democratic Party. They've already endorsed Sanders for the Democratic Primaries.

Arguing about whether there's a difference between Socialism and Democratic Socialism is really just an argument over political/philosophical orthodoxy. People who advocate for complete economic socialism tend to be on the fringe and in the USA there are hardly any. Most active political parties in Western Democracies that advocate for "socialism" today do so from a "Democratic Socialism" perspective.

From http://www.dsausa.org/

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Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few. To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy so that ordinary Americans can participate in the many decisions that affect our lives.

Democracy and socialism go hand in hand. All over the world, wherever the idea of democracy has taken root, the vision of socialism has taken root as well—everywhere but in the United States. Because of this, many false ideas about socialism have developed in the US. With this pamphlet, we hope to answer some of your questions about socialism.
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Democratic socialists do not want to create an all-powerful government bureaucracy. But we do not want big corporate bureaucracies to control our society either. Rather, we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect.

Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them.

Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.

Democratic socialists have long rejected the belief that the whole economy should be centrally planned. While we believe that democratic planning can shape major social investments like mass transit, housing, and energy, market mechanisms are needed to determine the demand for many consumer goods.

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 11:59 AM   #143
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I was an Organizer for DSA in the 1990s. Trying to explain this to Americans was like beating my head against a brick wall. Americans associate the term Socialism with Soviet or Chinese style communism. It's always been that way, even a century ago when Eugene Debs was running actual political campaigns under a Socialist Platform.

Prior to WWII there was far more support for Fascism in the USA than there ever was or has been for any type of Socialism.

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 12:08 PM   #144
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Is this a joke

Alabama Mississippi Louisiana Oklahoma South Carolina Kansas the Dakotas Utah Idaho and kentucky are not "up for grabs."
no shit sherlock of course i'm not referring to every red state on the map. but pennsylvania, indiana, illinois, florida, ohio i think we can all agree are up for grabs.

 
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:17 PM   #145
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Think of all the red state voters in the Obamacare coverage gap. They are pretty invariably pissed off at republicans. I'm not sure about the numbers, but I'm pretty sure if you got a decent amount of them to vote, a democratic supermajority would be easily attainable.
LOL

When it comes to the presidency southern whites are not going to vote for Sanders in any great numbers. They already hate Obama and despite being poor as hell they continue to vote for republicans that fuck them over.

in Congress Democrats are already a majority when it comes to popular vote.

Republican States are horribly gerrymandered. Dem candidates for the past two election cycles have posted the majority of votes for the US House, yet they're the minority party?

in the Senate, due to the fact that less populace States are constitutionally overrepresented, the Republican "majority" represents only a bit more than 40% of total votes.

There won't be a Democratic super majority in Congress anytime soon. And even if Dems put up the votes for one, they'd barely win majority represention. And when it comes to the Presidency most of those states are not real opportunities for any Democrat running in the general election. Ohio, Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin Yes. But that's because they're majority Democratic states with gerrymandered GOP majorities.

 
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Old 05-31-2015, 09:01 AM   #146
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no shit sherlock of course i'm not referring to every red state on the map. but pennsylvania, indiana, illinois, florida, ohio i think we can all agree are up for grabs.
I thought you were posting it in the context of our immediately preceding post that talked about a supermajority. If those states aren't in play (and they aren't) then talk of a potential supermajority is just nonsense.

 
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:51 AM   #147
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Bernie does appear to be gathering some momentum. Which is nice to see.

 
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:52 PM   #148
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they try and find dirt and all they find is a truly kind man who NEVER EVER GAVE UP

i love him

 
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Old 06-02-2015, 08:11 PM   #149
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He gives such great interviews. I am so excited to see him debate. Clinton, O'Malley and Chaffee will have no idea what to do.

 
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Old 06-02-2015, 09:35 PM   #150
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probably just going to be all of them dogging on billary. just like last time

except now here won't be cheerleading (normally i think blaming 'media bias' is lazy.. but maaan did they coast obongo)

 
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