Rank the First Five Teargarden Songs

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by Phoenix Down

Call me, Billy. I can fix your career and create the greatest rock record of the decade with you.

Machina III - Temples of Ulysses

1. Glorious
2. Wasting Time
3. Chrysanthemum
4. To Wonder, To Suffer
5. Moonage Daydream [David Bowie]
6. White City
7. Gossamer
8. How Things Are Supposed To Be
9. Lost in The Woods
10. Rivers We Can't Cross
11. The Empty Sea
12. Friends As Lovers
13. A New Poetry

i hate putting covers on studio albums personally.

[frugalscotsman]

billy foretold he would release teargarden in "an excerpt from Glass and the Machines of God"

the voice says you are one of many more to come

song for a son=fulfillment of prophesy
mystery=will billy write good music ever again after SP breakup?
answer=teargarden=NO

MYSTERY SOLVED

tl;dr
stop mining old songs + resources for recyclable lyrics

[Phoenix Down]

Originally Posted by RenewRevive

i hate putting covers on studio albums personally.

yeah, me too. i don't like that either but since I heard Billy talking about a Moonage Daydream cover years ago I've been wanting it. It is one of the awesomest songs

[Reyngel]

1. Astral Planes
2. Song for a Son.
3. Teargarden Theme
4. Stitch in Time

*5. Widow Wake My Mind


* The worst Pumpkins song of all time

[vanitycrieswhy]

its hard to rate such low quality songs against each other. stitch in time and astral planes have cool ideas. i can't listen to SFAS all the way through and the teargarden theme is boring, tho i usually love spacey instrumentals.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by Reyngel

*5. Widow Wake My Mind


* The worst Pumpkins song of all time

No matter how many times this gets said, it's never ever going to be true. And it's really getting kind of old now.

It's not even the worst Pumpkins song released in the Teargarden era now that Teargarden Theme is out.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Corganist

No matter how many times this gets said, it's never ever going to be true. And it's really getting kind of old now.

It's not even the worst Pumpkins song released in the Teargarden era now that Teargarden Theme is out.

you are wrong about everything

[killtrocity]

why would anyone defend that abomination of sound

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by killtrocity

why would anyone defend that abomination of sound

No one is defending it. There's not much to like about WWMM. But if you can't think of at least a half dozen songs worse than it in the entire couple hundred released songs in the SP catalog, then you're just not trying.

[Reyngel]

Originally Posted by Corganist

No one is defending it. There's not much to like about WWMM. But if you can't think of at least a half dozen songs worse than it in the entire couple hundred released songs in the SP catalog, then you're just not trying.

If you can name half a dozen SP songs that are worse than Widow Wake My Mind, I'd be amazing surprised.


There are other bad Pumpkins songs out there, don't get me wrong. But Widow Wake My Mind is bad on so many levels, it's really set the bar for absolute shit.


The lyrics. The vocal performance. The bridge. The repetitiveness. The drumming. And the overall feel. All of these components are a massive failure in Widow Wake My Mind. There might be other Pumpkins songs that fail in one, MAYBE 2 of these areas, but no other song even comes close to failing at EVERYTHING like Widow Wake My Mind.


And you can argue that, but the fact is, the overwhelming majority of everyone here and elsewhere thinks this song is ridiculously terrible.

[aomb1979]

WWMM is slightly more listenable than Because you Are

[Kahlo]

I don't get the hate for BYA - song has some amazing sections in it such as the interlude of guitar/drums towards the end

[vbshlofbvgos]

Originally Posted by Corganist

No matter how many times this gets said, it's never ever going to be true. And it's really getting kind of old now.

It's not even the worst Pumpkins song released in the Teargarden era now that Teargarden Theme is out.

You know, it's kind of arrogant for you to assume that just because you think that the teargarden theme is the worst song on the album than everyone should think that way. Its as if you think people are being too stubborn to admit that they don't hate WWMM just because they all shat on it when it first came out. Well, guess what? Alot of people genuinely hate that song and really do feel that its the worst song on the album and the worst SP song of all time. I do see your point about there being alot of less than stellar SP songs out there but why is it so hard to believe that, once again, people genuinely feel that it is the worst song of all time? I think it also might be unfair to compare this to a b-side because isn't WWMM supposed to be the "single" off of the album? With Corgan trying to push radio airplay and performing it on Jay Leno it would seem that he really thinks this song is something special which is all the more frustrating to everyone. So really just please accept the fact alot of us think WWMM is the worst song. Its not as if this is the first time that you had an opinion which differed from the majority of the board. And I'm also curious to hear what 5 or 6 songs that you feel are worse than WWMM.

[redbull]

Originally Posted by vbshlofbvgos

You know, it's kind of arrogant for you to assume that just because you think that the teargarden theme is the worst song on the album than everyone should think that way. Its as if you think people are being too stubborn to admit that they don't hate WWMM just because they all shat on it when it first came out. Well, guess what? Alot of people genuinely hate that song and really do feel that its the worst song on the album and the worst SP song of all time. I do see your point about there being alot of less than stellar SP songs out there but why is it so hard to believe that, once again, people genuinely feel that it is the worst song of all time? I think it also might be unfair to compare this to a b-side because isn't WWMM supposed to be the "single" off of the album? With Corgan trying to push radio airplay and performing it on Jay Leno it would seem that he really thinks this song is something special which is all the more frustrating to everyone. So really just please accept the fact alot of us think WWMM is the worst song. Its not as if this is the first time that you had an opinion which differed from the majority of the board. And I'm also curious to hear what 5 or 6 songs that you feel are worse than WWMM.

look i understand you probably haven't been around in a while but it isn't worth arguing with him

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by vbshlofbvgos

You know, it's kind of arrogant for you to assume that just because you think that the teargarden theme is the worst song on the album than everyone should think that way. Its as if you think people are being too stubborn to admit that they don't hate WWMM just because they all shat on it when it first came out. Well, guess what? Alot of people genuinely hate that song and really do feel that its the worst song on the album and the worst SP song of all time.

Hating the song is fine. Thinking it's the worst on the album is fine. Thinking it's the worst SP song of all time, however, shows either dishonesty, a completely warped sense of taste, or a complete lack of familiarity with the SP catalog. Or all three.

I do see your point about there being alot of less than stellar SP songs out there but why is it so hard to believe that, once again, people genuinely feel that it is the worst song of all time? I think it also might be unfair to compare this to a b-side because isn't WWMM supposed to be the "single" off of the album? With Corgan trying to push radio airplay and performing it on Jay Leno it would seem that he really thinks this song is something special which is all the more frustrating to everyone. So really just please accept the fact alot of us think WWMM is the worst song.

A bad song is a bad song no matter what Billy thinks of it or how hard he pushed it commercially, so I don't think there's some kind of weird sliding scale here. If you have to stack the deck like that to justify your opinion then maybe it's not as solid as you think it is.

Its not as if this is the first time that you had an opinion which differed from the majority of the board.

So what? Usually when that happens, it means I'm right, and that's especially true these days. Any credence that the opinion of the "majority of this board" may have ever held has been pretty effectively pissed away by now. Ridiculous hyperbole like "WWMM is the worst SP song ever" is the exact reason no one takes us seriously anymore.

And I'm also curious to hear what 5 or 6 songs that you feel are worse than WWMM.

17
The Bells
Take Me Down
Believe
Le Deux Machina
Czarina
Summer
In My Body
Innosence
Annie Dog
Tale of Dusty
Pomp and Circumstance

And that's probably just a start. If I were stuck on a desert island and had to listen to one song the entire time, I'd pick WWMM over any of these...and I fucking know that everyone here would pick it too over at least a couple of them. I'm not saying anybody secretly likes the song, but come on and be realistic here.

[Catherine Wheel]

That list has got to be a joke. Innosense and Annie Dog worse than WWMM?

[CourtJaster]

I'm in the SFAS-only camp.

I don't like any of the others.

[vbshlofbvgos]

Originally Posted by Corganist

So what? Usually when that happens, it means I'm right, and that's especially true these days.

LOL!
What?
I mean... REALLY?
Look I guess its just a matter of personal taste so I'll just agree to disagree with you here.

[vbshlofbvgos]

Originally Posted by redbull

look i understand you probably haven't been around in a while but it isn't worth arguing with him

yeah... sorry I forgot

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by Corganist

17
The Bells
Take Me Down
Believe
Le Deux Machina
Czarina
Summer
In My Body
Innosence
Annie Dog
Tale of Dusty
Pomp and Circumstance.

really? you haven't even listed particularly bad songs here Corganist.

i don't even think of 17 when songs are talked about tbh.

the Bells, Believe, Take Me Down and Summer - guess you don't like James then! - are all good solid songs.

Tale of Dusty and Pistol Pete isn't even the worst track off Adore! granted, I used to dislike Annie Dog, but have warmed to it over time.

Innosence is kinda sweet; In My Body is okay too.

Now I dislike Pomp as much as anyone, but the solo is decent, so even there i don't think it's necessarily inferior to WWMM.

songs (not demos or live, but officially released) that i dislike as much as Widow:

Tonite Reprise.

[Reyngel]

Originally Posted by Corganist

So what? Usually when that happens, it means I'm right, and that's especially true these days. Any credence that the opinion of the "majority of this board" may have ever held has been pretty effectively pissed away by now. Ridiculous hyperbole like "WWMM is the worst SP song ever" is the exact reason no one takes us seriously anymore.

You've officially proved that your arguments on this board are not only subjective, but also completely illogical. There is absolutely no sense in you being "right" when everyone else feels a different way. What a completely ignorant thing to say. For you to even pretend that you have some kind of one-of-a-kind measuring stick of "right and wrong," exclusive to only you and your opinions, is one of the most immature things I've ever come across on Netphoria. People post fart jokes and sexually explicit Photoshop jokes all the time on this board... and yet, none of that comes off as immature as what you just said. Because with you, you actually intend your bullshit to be taken seriously. Unreal.


You post on this board like you're some kind of martyr, standing up for the Pumpkins and Billy Corgan because no one else here will. In reality, however, you're a complete fool most of the time. And your only foundational defense in arguments like these ends up being cemented the delusion of you always being right. And you know what?

1. This is a fucking INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD. We're here to discuss and to share our opinions about a rock band.

2. Stop acting like OUR opinions can be "wrong," and YOUR opinions aren't actually opinions, but truth. You're like a fucking child sometimes.

3. No one here ASKED you to be Netphoria's ambassador of positive publicity. So if you care so much about other people taking Netphoria seriously, leave. It's very, very clear that most of us do not want you here when you throw our simple threads like "rate Teargarden songs" into a spiral of arguing and fighting. Have you not noticed that most of the negativity on Netphoria lately has to do in some part with things you say? You must at least have the common sense and general understanding of this, even if you don't like it. It's no coincidence!


And I type all of this, and know that you're going to continue to argue it. Because that's your history on this site lately.

I have a request of you.

Read this next part carefully.

Corganist? The majority of active Netphorians don't appreciate you. We don't like how you confuse opinion with truth, and we don't like talking it out with brick walls. If you're going to keep it up, just leave.

Otherwise, accept that other people have opinions too, and while they tend to be the complete opposite of yours almost ALL the time, the fact is, they are opinions. And your input? Your input is ALSO an opinion. So stop glorifying your thoughts as something more than ours. Because it just makes us want to hate you even more.

[arCHI]

Originally Posted by Corganist

Le Deux Machina
Pomp and Circumstance

i agree with these. 17 isnt even a song. the rest may not be great songs but WWMM is laughably bad.

apples + oranjes might be a good candidate, it is in the same vein of incredibly trite lyrics.

[TuralyonW3]

Originally Posted by Corganist

17
The Bells
Take Me Down
Believe
Le Deux Machina
Czarina
Summer
In My Body
Innosence
Annie Dog
Tale of Dusty
Pomp and Circumstance

I like all these songs EASILY more than Widow.

I'm extremely familiar with the SP catalogue, obscure demos and all.

Widow is my least favorite SP song.

I'm not being dishonest though I guess I have a "warped sense of taste" by your standards.

Quick fucking telling people their opinion is wrong.

[TuralyonW3]

And how you can you not like innosense? I mean it's not that different than Sweet Sweet or something.

[Reyngel]

Originally Posted by Corganist

17
The Bells
Take Me Down
Believe
Le Deux Machina
Czarina
Summer
In My Body
Innosence
Annie Dog
Tale of Dusty
Pomp and Circumstance

By the way...


17: Really? You're actually that immature to use this as an example? Had you jokingly added this to your list, my respect for you would have actually gone up a bit. But you're actually serious?

all of the James songs: I can point to about 5 or 6 different posts by you in the recent past where you claimed James' influence in the band was practically nil. And now you're using 4 out the 12 songs you listed as evidence of "Pumpkins" songs? Give me a break. You can't have it both ways. Regardless, James' songs have always been completely different from other Pumpkins' songs, as James is an entirely different song writer. And, as you've argued yourself so many times, Billy is the true Pumpkins' backbone and song writer, not James. So in this situation, you can't count James' songs, unless Billy had a prominent impact on them. And in the ones you listed, he didn't.

Le Deux Machina: if you read what I wrote, I clearly listed the variables I was taking into account when claiming that Widow Wake My Mind was the worst Pumpkins song of all time. And one of those variables was lyrics and vocals. This song has neither.

Czarina: Billy even said himself that Czarina was more of a polished demo than a finished song. So this doesn't count. Especially when Widow Wake My Mind is clearly not in any sense anything even close to a demo, as Billy has clearly explained that he's giving his 100% to each song, one a time, so that they can be the best possible song.

In My Body: This whole debate is a matter of opinion, but, over the last decade, the majority of people on the internet(all sites... not just Netphoria) would disagree with you here. That's not to say this is one of Billy's best, but it's certainly not even close to the shallow bullshit of Widow.

Innocense: I will admit, Innocense is definitely one of the worst Pumpkins songs of all time. But at least it doesn't sound like a Britney Spears song having an abortion like Widow does. The major difference between the two songs is that Innocense sounds like it's actually meant to be an overly simplistic song, and so its ridiculous repetitiveness makes sense, somewhat. But with Widow, the pretentious lyrics of the bridge kills that idea, and makes the song just absolutely and embarrassingly cringe-worthy. This is a close call, but Widow is still worse than Innocense.

Annie-Dog: Again, using the criteria I listed, this song is not even close to being the worst ever. Annie-Dog's lyrics are actually pretty amazing and very uniquely poetic. And the low bass key of the piano are a very well-paired dynamic with the mood of the song. A lot of people don't like this song, but few next to none would agree with you on this.

Tale of Dusty and Pistol Pete: I won't even say much on this. Almost everyone disagrees with you on this, including me. This is a great song.

Pomp and Circumstance: Widow Wake My Mind is repetitive, shallow, the vocals are atrocious and the mood is forgettable if not non-existent. Pomp and Circumstance is a hard song to get into, I admit, bu its lyrics are arguably some of Corgan's BEST, as evident by the responses of people over the past few years. The song certainly isn't shallow by any means, and the vocals are amazing, aside from the la-la-la's, which is really the only thing people have a big problem with. And this is evident by the live performances, where the la-la-la's were absent, and everyone raved about the song.


To sum it up, your list fails as much as Widow.

[redbull]

man even with ffvb corganist is still managing to ruin the board for me

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by arCHI

apples + oranjes might be a good candidate, it is in the same vein of incredibly trite lyrics.

never understood the hate people have for this song.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by Reyngel

You've officially proved that your arguments on this board are not only subjective, but also completely illogical. There is absolutely no sense in you being "right" when everyone else feels a different way. What a completely ignorant thing to say. For you to even pretend that you have some kind of one-of-a-kind measuring stick of "right and wrong," exclusive to only you and your opinions, is one of the most immature things I've ever come across on Netphoria. People post fart jokes and sexually explicit Photoshop jokes all the time on this board... and yet, none of that comes off as immature as what you just said. Because with you, you actually intend your bullshit to be taken seriously. Unreal.

I don't claim my opinions are the end-all-be-all by any stretch of the imagination, but it is a fucking fact that my opinions on most things Billy/SP-related end up bearing themselves out in reality a lot more often than the negative nancy shit that people post in their relentless worst-case-scenario bitching. If the prevailing opinions of this board were always right and I was not, we'd have zero Teargarden songs to rank because the project would have never started, Billy would be on suicide watch or dead because of the massive and severe depression the psychiatric experts here think he displays in Rolling Stone interviews, the current lineup of SP would never even have sniffed late night TV, and zero old songs would have been played at the show a couple weeks ago.

Sure we all have our opinions about what's going to happen based on everything we know...but really, some opinions can be and have been more accurate than others.

You post on this board like you're some kind of martyr, standing up for the Pumpkins and Billy Corgan because no one else here will. In reality, however, you're a complete fool most of the time. And your only foundational defense in arguments like these ends up being cemented the delusion of you always being right. And you know what?

1. This is a fucking INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD. We're here to discuss and to share our opinions about a rock band.

2. Stop acting like OUR opinions can be "wrong," and YOUR opinions aren't actually opinions, but truth. You're like a fucking child sometimes.

1. Opinions can be wrong. You can say it's your "opinion" that the Earth is flat all you want, but that doesn't make me wrong for telling you that it's a completely ridiculous, WRONG opinion. And I'd be right for doing so. So no, wrapping anything you say in the label of "opinion" doesn't absolve you from being called on it if it's full of shit.

2. I never said my opinions are truth. I say they're correct. People with differing opinions think they're correct. We all can't be right, so we argue it out. What am I missing here about how this whole discussing and sharing opinions on an INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD works? Am I supposed to just say "Oh, a different opinion! Well, that's nice!" and leave it at that? Because I'll tell ya, that's not the treatment my opinions have ever gotten here. And that's okay. I don't mind being disagreed with. I don't mind having unpopular opinions. But God forbid one guy disagree with some of you...

3. No one here ASKED you to be Netphoria's ambassador of positive publicity. So if you care so much about other people taking Netphoria seriously, leave. It's very, very clear that most of us do not want you here when you throw our simple threads like "rate Teargarden songs" into a spiral of arguing and fighting. Have you not noticed that most of the negativity on Netphoria lately has to do in some part with things you say? You must at least have the common sense and general understanding of this, even if you don't like it. It's no coincidence!

So throwing in that little (*worst SP song ever) bullshit was supposed to accomplish what exactly? That little bit of negativity had absolutely nothing to do with me.

Now, maybe I shouldn't have taken the bait and called you on it, but if you were really so concerned with keeping the thread simple and confined only to ranking Teargarden songs then you wouldn't have stirred the pot in the first place. Ditto for if you were wanting to really "share and discuss opinions," because then you shouldn't care if I disagreed. And somehow I doubt you'd have a problem if I had been all "LOL, good one man! You're so fucking awesome with how extra angry you are at Billy Corgan!"

It is amazing that this place can be a fucking echo chamber of negativity against all things Corgan, and yet somehow I get blamed for being the negative influence for...well, I don't know exactly. Being a dissenting voice? Why get so worked up about it? It's not like I'm ever an asshole about having a differing opinion, even if I am hard to argue with. Why not leave it alone and just take solace that you're in the vaunted "majority of the board" and be happy and frolic together with all the other haters if that's really what matters to you?

Read this next part carefully.

Corganist? The majority of active Netphorians don't appreciate you. We don't like how you confuse opinion with truth, and we don't like talking it out with brick walls. If you're going to keep it up, just leave.

Otherwise, accept that other people have opinions too, and while they tend to be the complete opposite of yours almost ALL the time, the fact is, they are opinions. And your input? Your input is ALSO an opinion. So stop glorifying your thoughts as something more than ours. Because it just makes us want to hate you even more.

What exactly is so under your skin about me expressing my opinions? Is it just that I don't think that Widow Wake My Mind is really the worst song ever? Or is it that I just don't buy that your opinion is anything more than bullshit hyperbole? This is really not a matter of me glorifying my thoughts, whatever the fuck that means. (Who the hell doesn't glorify their own thoughts above everyone else's?) And it isn't about me confusing opinion with truth.

If I thought this was merely about a difference of opinion on a song, that'd be one thing. If I thought people really thought the song was that terrible, that they'd really prefer, without any reservation, to listen to Le Deux Machina (lyrics or fucking no lyrics!) instead, or that they'd really rank lesser James Iha tracks better, then I'd disagree vehemently but there's no way I could make an objective claim. People like what they like and hate what they hate. But I think we all know that's not the case here, and really what's happening is people are still reaching desperately to justify throwing such ridiculous temper tantrums over a song that's hardly worth the attention. Why else would you really have to parse and stretch and make up new rules as you go along ("James songs don't count," "Oh, that song's really a demo") in order to exclude songs you won't actually defend?

I mean, what is so goddamn important about making a ridiculous and extreme claim that you won't (and really can't) even get all the way behind when everyone already agrees that the song is not good? Is it really too much just to ask that we be honest about how bad the song is or is not? Or is the value of hyperbole really that much to you that you would bend over backwards to defend or excuse drek like Le Deux Machina?

[Shallowed]

Originally Posted by Corganist

If I thought people really thought the song was that terrible, that they'd really prefer, without any reservation, to listen to Le Deux Machina (lyrics or fucking no lyrics!) instead, or that they'd really rank lesser James Iha tracks better, then I'd disagree vehemently but there's no way I could make an objective claim. People like what they like and hate what they hate. But I think we all know that's not the case here, and really what's happening is people are still reaching desperately to justify throwing such ridiculous temper tantrums over a song that's hardly worth the attention. Why else would you really have to parse and stretch and make up new rules as you go along ("James songs don't count," "Oh, that song's really a demo") in order to exclude songs you won't actually defend?

I can honestly say that I would rather listen to Le Deux Machina and all of James' songs looped a hundred times each than listen to Widow just once through. It totally is the case.

[D.]

Song for a son
Widow wake my mind
Teargarden theme
Stitch in time
Astral planes

That being said. had these tunes any other name on them I probably would have deleted all but SFAS.