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Old 10-21-2020, 01:04 PM   #121
Joey Goldberg
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does anyone still have a picture of the shirt the webmaster apparently designed after this whole debacle? according to the thread linked above, that was a thing!

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 01:27 PM   #122
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we can still use "Oboarder" as a slur though, right?

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 01:39 PM   #123
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I think dismissing anyone's mental illness as fake (especially if it was 30 yrs ago) contributes to an overall atmosphere where anyone else being honest about their own mental illness is more likely to be dismissed, mocked, etc. It's just bad form.

Everything else about Bill is garbage, though. I'm not defending his generally shitty personality and behavior.
But bad people can't be suicidal

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 04:10 PM   #124
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Sometimes the cruelty on this board far outweighs the most extreme examples (those often inflated, cited; the interpretations of which are often reiterated on this board) about WPC's supposed cruelties.

It's fucked up that some of you are so comfortable sublating or so casually denying someone's personal experiences to suit your own biases or impression of another human being.

It's disgusting.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 04:59 PM   #125
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Well, I don't know if they far outweigh them

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 05:01 PM   #126
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Like, what could any nerd who visits a forum of two dozen members say about Corgan on it that has as negative an impact as Corgan's transphobic, livelihood-threatening comments about a pedal builder, broadcast to his thousands of followers?

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 05:45 PM   #127
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yeah there's a huge difference between random nerds criticizing a celebrity, who for better or worse in our culture is meant to accept that, and i guess absorb that with their 'character' persona, than the celebrity, with power and reach, going on instagram and bitching

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 05:54 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by vitaldust View Post
Sometimes the cruelty on this board far outweighs the most extreme examples (those often inflated, cited; the interpretations of which are often reiterated on this board) about WPC's supposed cruelties.

It's fucked up that some of you are so comfortable sublating or so casually denying someone's personal experiences to suit your own biases or impression of another human being.

It's disgusting.
Billy never did or said any disgusting fucked up things to another human being like oooh... Stephen Malkmus literally yesterday, webmaster guy, Mike Byrne, pedal person, shapeshifter he wanted to bang, D’arcy...

Solid take, vd.

Last edited by Woody : 10-21-2020 at 06:03 PM.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 06:49 PM   #129
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Billy never did or said any disgusting fucked up things to another human being like oooh... Stephen Malkmus literally yesterday, webmaster guy, Mike Byrne, pedal person, shapeshifter he wanted to bang, D’arcy...

Solid take, vd.
BC never explicitly invalidated the entirety of another person's experiences in order to disseminate or reify an opinion about them.

It's one thing to say that someone is a hack, a bad employee, a bad fit for the band, an unethical business partner and quite another to respond to their own accounts of suffering and suggest that it never happened.

I think there is a clear difference there.

Many members here take an anecdote and believe they are in full possession of the truth.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 06:54 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Ram27 View Post
yeah there's a huge difference between random nerds criticizing a celebrity, who for better or worse in our culture is meant to accept that, and i guess absorb that with their 'character' persona, than the celebrity, with power and reach, going on instagram and bitching
Bitching on instagram and getting pissy with people is not the same thing as emptying out their relationship with particularized suffering. That is not just "criticism."

I think its much worse to see examples of invalidation & emotional, psychological erasure on a message board than it is to see a celebrity get mad at someone because of a personal grudge that may or may not be warranted.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 06:57 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
Like, what could any nerd who visits a forum of two dozen members say about Corgan on it that has as negative an impact as Corgan's transphobic, livelihood-threatening comments about a pedal builder, broadcast to his thousands of followers?
You assume it is transphobic. How did Devi identify herself back then? He/She.

The threats of violence? Definitely over the top. But think about the type of experiences that motivate responses like that. It is a typical, textbook reaction from someone who has experienced abuse, especially as a child. I'm not excusing it, but I think a little empathy in place of knee-jerk condemnation is a more productive trajectory.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 07:12 PM   #132
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Only one person here is doubting Billy's experiences with mental illness

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 08:00 PM   #133
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To return to the example of my dad, it is possible for me to recognize that he suffered severe abuse from an alcoholic father and that he suffered psychologically and has a lot of trauma, yet simultaneously name/condemn his own narcissistic abuse toward me and my mom and my sister. One person in here said “big willie was never suicidal that was a cynical lie to promote his single” and literally everyone else responded with an LOL. So your narrative that “netphoria is worse than big willie” is demonstrably false, vitaldust

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 08:23 PM   #134
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He once said in an interview a few years ago when Kurt was brought up that he’s stronger because he’s still here. I’m not gonna get into this argument with everyone but that’s kind of a messed up thing to say. To use someone else’s death and mental illness to bolster your own opinion of yourself. I’d have to search to find the interview but I distinctly remember being disgusted by what he said.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 08:31 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by vitaldust View Post
You assume it is transphobic. How did Devi identify herself back then? He/She.

The threats of violence? Definitely over the top. But think about the type of experiences that motivate responses like that. It is a typical, textbook reaction from someone who has experienced abuse, especially as a child. I'm not excusing it, but I think a little empathy in place of knee-jerk condemnation is a more productive trajectory.
So now you’re a transphobic apologist? Not a good look. It was well known that Devi was transitioning. His to her comments were disgusting, violent, and very discriminatory. If he had done it a few years later he would be cancelled (though you could argue he might as well already be considering the response to his music now).

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 08:42 PM   #136
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So now you’re a transphobic apologist? Not a good look. It was well known that Devi was transitioning. His to her comments were disgusting, violent, and very discriminatory. If he had done it a few years later he would be cancelled (though you could argue he might as well already be considering the response to his music now).
Again, she identified then as He/She.

It is not transphobic to recognize the preferred identification of someone transitioning.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 08:44 PM   #137
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Again, she identified then as He/She.

It is not transphobic to recognize the preferred identification of someone transitioning.
Did she identify then as he/she? Where did you hear that?

How about the other transphobic bile in there ("if you still have enough balls")?

I 100% agree people shouldn't be denying his own psychological experiences. You don't have to justify his shitty behavior at the same time.

We are not the worst things we've ever done and I won't judge his entire life on the things I hear about in the media, or his interviews. He has gone through trauma and so have I. But he's a grown ass man and it wasn't a mistake, he went after someone's weak spot on purpose to hurt them. He should have apologized.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 08:49 PM   #138
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I can't possible understand what it's like to be praised as a genius and given millions of dollars so I am not judging his reaction to what he went through (good and bad) but not recognizing that he should know better is not the same thing.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 09:12 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Run To Me View Post
To return to the example of my dad, it is possible for me to recognize that he suffered severe abuse from an alcoholic father and that he suffered psychologically and has a lot of trauma, yet simultaneously name/condemn his own narcissistic abuse toward me and my mom and my sister. One person in here said “big willie was never suicidal that was a cynical lie to promote his single” and literally everyone else responded with an LOL. So your narrative that “netphoria is worse than big willie” is demonstrably false, vitaldust
I'm sorry that you and your family were abused. It's horrible.

The perspective I was responding to is not isolated to this single instance (not everyone responded with an "LOL", either). There is a tendency here to resort to a constant, nearly unilateral denunciation of every single thing that BC does and says. Often, these positions are taken (and taken seriously) against the contours of his character because of abstracted anecdotes. None of us are close enough to him personally to position these judgments fairly or accurately. None of us can know the truth of the scenarios that prompted this or that emotion. That is to say, there is an important difference between opinion and fact. Many of the opinions that people have here about BC are taken as fact. If some (if not most) of these opinions were approached with a healthy skepticism, the opposite perspective would be readily available. My statements more directly concern this aspect of the board's attitudes and priorities.

For example: BC's position on free speech (essential to art as an institution and individual practice) does not mean he is a trump supper, alt-right, or hateful towards anyone. Such imagined valences of his character are extrapolations. Being skeptical of the media does not only mean you are alt-right; it could also mean you just are a critical thinker. Trump and the entirety of the post-structuralist movement in philosophy have that in common. Dems and Rep both abuse our communicative apparatuses. He has never said anything positive about Trump and he has been openly critical of this administration.

His belief in god is individual, personal, and not based in a theological tradition that could be called conservative, radical, or essentialist. This board pillories him for his faith, whatever it may be.

His positions on BLM and Covid have become very clear in recent interviews and posts. Instead of choosing to emphasize the very public way in which he is responding empathetically to our social divisions, people here remain dedicated to the notion that he is an evil bigot.

Then we have Cyr which apparently was a good excuse to invalidate his subjective experiences.

Netphoria seems dedicated to reinforcing a negative projection of BC as a way of distancing from music they don't like as much as SD.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 09:14 PM   #140
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ok

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 09:19 PM   #141
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Did she identify then as he/she? Where did you hear that?

How about the other transphobic bile in there ("if you still have enough balls")?

I 100% agree people shouldn't be denying his own psychological experiences. You don't have to justify his shitty behavior at the same time.

We are not the worst things we've ever done and I won't judge his entire life on the things I hear about in the media, or his interviews. He has gone through trauma and so have I. But he's a grown ass man and it wasn't a mistake, he went after someone's weak spot on purpose to hurt them. He should have apologized.
Yeah he definitely 100% should have apologized. The shape of anger, though, can signify differently for people that have experienced trauma. I don't condone his comments at all, but I am opening to understanding the reason behind them.

I also embrace and welcome his recent comments against bigotry and specifically transphobia.

She identified as He/She on social media, not too long before all of this happened. I can't find it now, a lot of her stuff is gone. She was in the process of transitioning so the self-identification was a reflection of that.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 09:24 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by houseofglass11 View Post
He once said in an interview a few years ago when Kurt was brought up that he’s stronger because he’s still here. I’m not gonna get into this argument with everyone but that’s kind of a messed up thing to say. To use someone else’s death and mental illness to bolster your own opinion of yourself. I’d have to search to find the interview but I distinctly remember being disgusted by what he said.
The response to suicide, especially from those that have considered it, can be confusing and variable. Maybe he needed to know, for himself, that he was strong enough not to kill himself. It's not a disgusting response if you think of it as an emanation from an attitude he had to adopt to survive.

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 09:41 PM   #143
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you sound like a casual fan

 
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Old 10-21-2020, 09:55 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by vitaldust View Post
The response to suicide, especially from those that have considered it, can be confusing and variable. Maybe he needed to know, for himself, that he was strong enough not to kill himself. It's not a disgusting response if you think of it as an emanation from an attitude he had to adopt to survive.
this is a good point. it's a pretty fucked up thing to verbalize but i can totally understand feeling that way

and it also depends on how he phrased it too....'kurt cobain killed himself but i'm still here' is different than 'kurt's death made me realize my own mortality and how our paths mirrored each other but then diverged' or some shit, you know

 
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Old 10-22-2020, 03:04 AM   #145
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Netphoria seems dedicated to reinforcing a negative projection of BC as a way of distancing from music they don't like as much as SD.
BC is dedicated to reinforcing a negative projection of BC.

We have an ex-band-mate literally saying Billy is adept at pretending to be sensitive and has a bully mentality.

You'd have to be naive to think a rockstar writing grunge and proto-emo records telling journos they were suicidal and damaged wouldn't sell records in the mid-90's. Of course it might be true, nobody here fucking knows, but we have reason to doubt BC based on the last 20 years.

Last edited by Woody : 10-22-2020 at 04:25 AM.

 
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Old 10-22-2020, 04:20 AM   #146
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It's possible to care about mental health issues, but to also find it incredibly obnoxious when someone rich and successful reveals "I was suicidal" out of context, when it's used as a demonstration of authenticity, narcissistic self-promotion and a transparent way of deflecting and preventing criticism.

This is not something Billy does now. But I know of other online celebs who do and it's like they've found bulletproof armor.

Last edited by Woody : 10-22-2020 at 04:26 AM.

 
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:18 AM   #147
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BC is dedicated to reinforcing a negative projection of BC.

We have an ex-band-mate literally saying Billy is adept at pretending to be sensitive and has a bully mentality.

You'd have to be naive to think a rockstar writing grunge and proto-emo records telling journos they were suicidal and damaged wouldn't sell records in the mid-90's. Of course it might be true, nobody here fucking knows, but we have reason to doubt BC based on the last 20 years.
No, you actually have no reason or right to invalidate someone else's pain and suffering.

 
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:20 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Woody View Post
It's possible to care about mental health issues, but to also find it incredibly obnoxious when someone rich and successful reveals "I was suicidal" out of context, when it's used as a demonstration of authenticity, narcissistic self-promotion and a transparent way of deflecting and preventing criticism.

This is not something Billy does now. But I know of other online celebs who do and it's like they've found bulletproof armor.
If someone says "I am suicidal" the only response to that should be empathy, kindness, and understanding.

 
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:38 AM   #149
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I have every right to form my own opinion.

Now cry me a fucking river and sail away to sad machines.

 
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:51 AM   #150
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I have every right to form my own opinion.

Now cry me a fucking river and sail away to sad machines.
Of course you have every right to your opinion. But I also have a right to point out that your opinion and the mechanisms behind it could be seen as unkind and insensitive. I'm not saying you are unkind and insensitive (I don't know you), just that there are better ways to respond to the pain of other people.

Don't you mean Cyr me a river?

I've been visiting Netphoria since 1998. I used to spend my free period in HS browsing these threads. Your order of expulsion to a different board for promoting compassion basically proves my above points.

 
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