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Old 10-19-2020, 12:34 PM   #61
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My feelings on these songs are complicated.. I can't decide if they're crap or great. Which is more than can be said about the last few records which were always solidly "ok I guess".

This future plastic soul thing. I get it but I'm not sure if they've pulled it off.

It's a really weird for them to do such a vocal driven record. It needed a better vocalist/lyricist. He does ok and the melodies are some of his best but he's not expressive or sexy enough to really pull it off. I can't work out if that's the point though?

Why write low effort/last minute (by his own admission) lyrics on an album that's all about the vocals?

I get the asceticism thing and their need to not repeat themselves or do typical "Smashing Pumpkins" things but every song could be objectively better with some fuzz guitar, a solo, something from Jimmy, etc.

It's surprisingly engaging if you give it your full, undivided attention.

I think it's another "spiteful" joke record, like MTAE. MTAE was the joke in itself while this one's the punchline to a joke setup by the 3/4 reunion, SAOSB tour, SAOSBV1NPNFNS, I got my guitar back, we're going to do a hard rocking tour, etc..
Great that you’re willing to put so much effort into understanding this for us. We appreciate your listens. Anything u can learn or suss out, let’s share it. Thank you everyone. Don’t give up. Lord knows we need all the help we can get, during these challenging times,

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 12:51 PM   #62
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I guess the problem I have is that Billy doesn't really seem to have a deep and intimate knowledge of how to write and build using synths, certainly not in the way that bands like Depeche Mode or Phantogram (somebody mentioned a while back) do.

Even if he's trying to go for some kind of New Order type sound, it's funny to me listening to Gorillaz's "Aries" and yes obviously Peter Hook is directly playing on that but Damon Albarn seems to have a much better idea on how to play with pop sounds, and a large part of that is through collaboration.

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:08 PM   #63
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I guess the problem I have is that Billy doesn't really seem to have a deep and intimate knowledge of how to write and build using synths, certainly not in the way that bands like Depeche Mode or Phantogram (somebody mentioned a while back) do.

Even if he's trying to go for some kind of New Order type sound, it's funny to me listening to Gorillaz's "Aries" and yes obviously Peter Hook is directly playing on that but Damon Albarn seems to have a much better idea on how to play with pop sounds, and a large part of that is through collaboration.
The synths aren't really the point. I feel that the music on these songs is very much supposed to be "background" music. Cold, simple. Repetition as discipline. Everything of interest is in the vocal melodies and arrangements.

Whether that works or not is another thing entirely but this doesn't sound like Depeche Mode or Phantogram because it's not supposed to. Nearest thing I can think of is it's supposed to sound like Hall & Oates or Young American by way of Elvis Presleys fat years.

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:52 PM   #64
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My feelings on these songs are complicated.. I can't decide if they're crap or great. Which is more than can be said about the last few records which were always solidly "ok I guess".

This future plastic soul thing. I get it but I'm not sure if they've pulled it off.

It's a really weird for them to do such a vocal driven record. It needed a better vocalist/lyricist. He does ok and the melodies are some of his best but he's not expressive or sexy enough to really pull it off. I can't work out if that's the point though?

Why write low effort/last minute (by his own admission) lyrics on an album that's all about the vocals?

I get the asceticism thing and their need to not repeat themselves or do typical "Smashing Pumpkins" things but every song could be objectively better with some fuzz guitar, a solo, something from Jimmy, etc.

It's surprisingly engaging if you give it your full, undivided attention.

I think it's another "spiteful" joke record, like MTAE. MTAE was the joke in itself while this one's the punchline to a joke setup by the 3/4 reunion, SAOSB tour, SAOSBV1NPNFNS, I got my guitar back, we're going to do a hard rocking tour, etc..
You mean a passionless karaoke tour in which every rendition is exactly the same as it is on the album and a three hour set list that doesn't change?

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 02:04 PM   #65
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I checked out years ago, hell a decade ago at this point.

I actually kinda like the new songs. Just can't get up the energy to care about them.

There was a brief ray of hope with how much work and originality he put into the production of the reunion tour. That was however was marred by the silly over the top fan reaction to Darcy being "left out."

I don't even really listen to the old stuff anymore. I cared about it way too much and Billy just never was that the guy I thought he was. I listen to his lyrics now and feel it was all just engineered to be early 90's commercial shit.

Back then I was like why do all his peers hate him, now I feel dumb because it's really obvious why they hated him.

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 02:08 PM   #66
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I checked out years ago, hell a decade ago at this point.

I actually kinda like the new songs. Just can't get up the energy to care about them.

There was a brief ray of hope with how much work and originality he put into the production of the reunion tour. That was however was marred by the silly over the top fan reaction to Darcy being "left out."

I don't even really listen to the old stuff anymore. I cared about it way too much and Billy just never was that the guy I thought he was. I listen to his lyrics now and feel it was all just engineered to be early 90's commercial shit.

Back then I was like why do all his peers hate him, now I feel dumb because it's really obvious why they hated him.
You mean 15 sincere 'you're the only one I'll ever love' love songs about 15 different girlfriends?

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 03:13 PM   #67
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You mean 15 sincere 'you're the only one I'll ever love' love songs about 15 different girlfriends?

Pink ribbon scars
That never forget
I tried so hard
To cleanse these regrets

That's the one that always stands out to me. There is no way Billy ever really felt that. And reading it as a more emotionally mature adult I can see it's just a shit narcist writing a sad song.

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 03:20 PM   #68
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Pink ribbon scars
That never forget
I tried so hard
To cleanse these regrets

That's the one that always stands out to me. There is no way Billy ever really felt that. And reading it as a more emotionally mature adult I can see it's just a shit narcist writing a sad song.
Huh, of all the songs to pick on as artificial from the original run, i wouldn’t have expected this one

Rider, what about disarm? Do u think it’s a product or did he feel them feelins?

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 03:57 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by incubator View Post
Nearest thing I can think of is it's supposed to sound like Hall & Oates or Young American by way of Elvis Presleys fat years.
Well I certainly don't get that from listening to them.

There's no soul, not even any plastic soul in these.

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 04:22 PM   #70
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G-guys…


 
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:03 PM   #71
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It's so, so fucking fucking fucking bad.

It's like Michael Jordan going down to the level of playing for the under 11s team of a tiny English village in which only three people play basketball and the other two have been roped in to make up the numbers. He's one of the other two.

It's so bad. This is the guy who wrote Hummer, Mayo, Geek USA, Ruby, Porcelina, Hello Kitty Kat, Obscured and literally 100 other 10/10 songs.

It's ineffabley bad. So bad that I'm vomiting blood and would rather suck sick through a tramp's sock than hear any more of this abomination of an album.
Yep. It’s the worst thing he’s ever done. And this is the guy who gave us Blinking with Fists.

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:06 PM   #72
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G-guys…



baby it's halloween and we can be a shitty synthpop band too

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:20 PM   #73
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Yep. It’s the worst thing he’s ever done. And this is the guy who gave us Blinking with Fists.
it’s lonely at the top

 
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:30 PM   #74
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I checked out years ago, hell a decade ago at this point.

I actually kinda like the new songs. Just can't get up the energy to care about them.

There was a brief ray of hope with how much work and originality he put into the production of the reunion tour. That was however was marred by the silly over the top fan reaction to Darcy being "left out."

I don't even really listen to the old stuff anymore. I cared about it way too much and Billy just never was that the guy I thought he was. I listen to his lyrics now and feel it was all just engineered to be early 90's commercial shit.

Back then I was like why do all his peers hate him, now I feel dumb because it's really obvious why they hated him.
Feel however you want to about it but I wouldn't let the post reunion output effect my enjoyment of the Classic SP albums, those were great and totally sincere. I don't know what the deal is with Billy and obviously no one does, but its obvious the success went to his head in a bad way and he just refuses to take input unless he's sucking up to Rick Rubin. Hell, if he would just get some producers and engineers like he did in the old days I think everyone would like the new albums a lot better.

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 02:33 AM   #75
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Feel however you want to about it but I wouldn't let the post reunion output effect my enjoyment of the Classic SP albums, those were great and totally sincere. I don't know what the deal is with Billy and obviously no one does, but its obvious the success went to his head in a bad way and he just refuses to take input unless he's sucking up to Rick Rubin. Hell, if he would just get some producers and engineers like he did in the old days I think everyone would like the new albums a lot better.
1

A producer to tell him eight or 20 times'this is fucking dreadful, can it and start again' before quitting after 24 or 60 subsequent canned songs, all of which were three minutes long and repeated themselves 77 times.

Then he can say 'the three best albums I ever did are in the can'.

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 05:21 AM   #76
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Imagine him working with someone like Nigel Godrich, he who told McCartney his songs weren't good enough, prompting Macca to make one of his best solo albums in years.

But if Billy was open to that, his music would definitely better. Even now, imagine him working with Butch Vig; Vig making him work for hours and hours on one line of vocal. I bet when Billy records vocals for these new songs it's once through and done. And not in a good way. He probably sang all 20 in the same day.

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 05:28 AM   #77
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Imagine him working with someone like Nigel Godrich, he who told McCartney his songs weren't good enough, prompting Macca to make one of his best solo albums in years.

But if Billy was open to that, his music would definitely better. Even now, imagine him working with Butch Vig; Vig making him work for hours and hours on one line of vocal. I bet when Billy records vocals for these new songs it's once through and done. And not in a good way. He probably sang all 20 in the same day.
I dunno man, the latest SSPU is their weakest in my opinion, Butch killed their sound.

No one's going to get CRŘGĂN writing Obscured or Hummer or Ruby standard music again. He's lost it.

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 06:57 AM   #78
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What is the longest Corgan has gone without doing anything music-oriented since his career began?

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 07:33 AM   #79
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Just a reminder that Cyr isn't some mystical word or literary title, but a reference to "Clean Your Room" by incel-baiting shit-peddling alt-right quack-doctor Jordan Peterson, whose self-help books are hilariously undermined by the fact he's now vegetated and MIA somewhere in Russia.

Billy's "self-help" gurus Neil Strauss and Jordan Peterson... imagine a 50+ year old being so full of shit!

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 07:51 AM   #80
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I checked out years ago, hell a decade ago at this point.

I actually kinda like the new songs. Just can't get up the energy to care about them.

There was a brief ray of hope with how much work and originality he put into the production of the reunion tour. That was however was marred by the silly over the top fan reaction to Darcy being "left out."

I don't even really listen to the old stuff anymore. I cared about it way too much and Billy just never was that the guy I thought he was. I listen to his lyrics now and feel it was all just engineered to be early 90's commercial shit.

Back then I was like why do all his peers hate him, now I feel dumb because it's really obvious why they hated him.
Yup 100%.

I don't believe the abuse and suicide stories that were circulated around Siamese Dream either.

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 08:10 AM   #81
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You`re confusing me with my mate František who - as the owner of the Sportovni Hala in Prague - played a crucial role in leaking SP`s setlist on their European tour in 2008. He used to have one turtle but unfortunately it has already passed. I`ve been thinking about getting turtles for quite some time now but always refute the idea, don`t know why. Maybe it`s because I really like fish.

František! Is that you?!? How's the foot of your turtle?


 
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Old 10-20-2020, 08:17 AM   #82
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Yup 100%.

I don't believe the abuse and suicide stories that were circulated around Siamese Dream either.
I was thinking the same, but there's no way you could write Geek or XYU without genuine passion. Maybe he was psychotic or had borderline?

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 08:31 AM   #83
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I dunno man, the latest SSPU is their weakest in my opinion, Butch killed their sound.
No that wasn't the point; it was more about having a producer to push him, like Vig used to push him in the past. Someone to say "do it again" or "that song shouldn't be on the album". Howard Willing hardly did that, and Rubin literally did the opposite.

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 08:31 AM   #84
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Last music I bought was Zeitgeist, last concert was Oberhausen in 2008. I have been mildly interested and enjoyed some tracks, but it feels like Shiny was the final, final nail in the coffin. I don't think I finished listening to even one of the last bunch of tracks, and I barely got through two or so songs from Bill's folksy albums.

There is so enough stuff out there that does what Billy's attempting, only much better and by people who are more likable.

I like visiting Netphoria to keep up with the news and because it's so entertaining.

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 08:32 AM   #85
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People still thinking this is the same guy who wrote SD

Fucking lol

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:15 AM   #86
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I was thinking the same, but there's no way you could write Geek or XYU without genuine passion. Maybe he was psychotic or had borderline?
Drugs, low self-esteem and rejection. Mainly drugs.

The tortured genius schtick was just piggybacking on what was marketable to 90’s teenagers. Let’s sell that saccharine Today hook with a tragic back story...

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:58 AM   #87
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No that wasn't the point; it was more about having a producer to push him, like Vig used to push him in the past. Someone to say "do it again" or "that song shouldn't be on the album". Howard Willing hardly did that, and Rubin literally did the opposite.
I'm with you there, I think there's only ever been a few great albums without a great external producer. But the fact is, no matter how many songs the producer, say Butch, rejects, there won't be any vastly superior replacements - which is what the current material needs...VAST! He's lost it man.

You'd think that even without a producer, one of out of six songs would be at least pretty good.

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:18 AM   #88
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I'm not sure how much the producers ever really pushed him. Seems like Butch and Flood at least could understand Billy's vision for the albums and help him deliver on it.

Listen to like, the Machina demos, or the dozens of tossed-away riffs for MCIS. He had a crazy run as a songwriter where 90% of what he wrote was gold.

Machina 2 is mostly garbage quality as far as the production goes and yet it's an order of magnitude better than anything post-2000.

I'm not convinced he has the drive to write amazing songs anymore. It's hard to believe he just lost the ability to do so.

Zwan was really the first warning sign that whatever vision that was planted in his brain wasn't leading to the best material being released.

So many fantastic live Zwan songs and almost none of them on the actual album.

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:40 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Rider View Post
Pink ribbon scars
That never forget
I tried so hard
To cleanse these regrets

That's the one that always stands out to me. There is no way Billy ever really felt that. And reading it as a more emotionally mature adult I can see it's just a shit narcist writing a sad song.
you don't think he ever considered suicide?

he did have a shit childhood. i would give his younger self the benefit of the doubt.

 
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:48 AM   #90
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Huh, of all the songs to pick on as artificial from the original run, i wouldn’t have expected this one

Rider, what about disarm? Do u think it’s a product or did he feel them feelins?
I think he's a sociopathic narcissist who does not experience feelings.

 
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