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05-29-2020, 01:20 PM | #61 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: Donald Trump of Netphoria
Posts: 37,215
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In Heretic, yes:
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05-29-2020, 01:20 PM | #62 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: the institute
Posts: 6,421
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Quote:
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05-29-2020, 01:24 PM | #63 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: Donald Trump of Netphoria
Posts: 37,215
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you forgot "eat a dick"
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05-29-2020, 01:26 PM | #64 |
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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#respectabilitypolitics
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05-29-2020, 02:03 PM | #65 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Location: I should kick you in the sides
Posts: 2,265
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Better doesn’t mean good enough. Black people aren’t slaves anymore, but no rational person thinks they are treated well in America.
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05-29-2020, 02:06 PM | #66 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
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I don’t think he ever made the argument that what is happening to black people in the US is good enough though. The argument started over the use of the word decayed
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05-29-2020, 02:13 PM | #67 |
Shut the fuck up!
Location: "Okay, white power feminist" - yo soy el mejor
Posts: 23,876
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The only thing not decaying in this country are billionaires fortunes. Everything else is shit
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05-29-2020, 02:14 PM | #68 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: Donald Trump of Netphoria
Posts: 37,215
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Also my dick. That's definitely not decaying.
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05-29-2020, 02:15 PM | #69 |
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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To say things haven't gotten patently worse in the last 4 years is just trying to justify own's political apathy.
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05-29-2020, 02:20 PM | #70 |
Shut the fuck up!
Location: "Okay, white power feminist" - yo soy el mejor
Posts: 23,876
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Trump is pulling the USA out of the World Health Association because he says it's controlled by China.
The United States has always had more control over the WHO than any other country on Earth. This is insane. We need to be able to communicate with the rest of the world to contain this. https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/tru...ational-group/ |
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05-29-2020, 02:45 PM | #71 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
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05-29-2020, 03:27 PM | #72 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: Donald Trump of Netphoria
Posts: 37,215
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Quote:
this is just a small part of it. decline? try a fucking nosedive. |
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05-29-2020, 05:39 PM | #73 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: all over the Internet
Posts: 44,548
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i hope they burn more police stations to the ground. that's the content we need.
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05-29-2020, 05:41 PM | #74 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: Donald Trump of Netphoria
Posts: 37,215
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fuck that they should just burn the white house
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05-29-2020, 06:19 PM | #75 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
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05-29-2020, 06:56 PM | #76 |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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The effort to combat the decay/decline assertion ultimately boiled down to just expanding the year range in our hypothetical Quality of America Over Time line graph — the moment ironically becoming the best curve flattening feat ever achieved by an American — while pointing out that worse conditions do exist in countries the US has never competed with for preeminence at any point in time.
It's just ridiculous when refuting the claim of America in decline literally includes contrasting the blatant corruption of the presidency or 100,000 avoidable deaths against contracting cholera and being shot by a redcoat in the War of 1812. How do things look when we examine the last three decades? |
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05-29-2020, 07:45 PM | #77 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Location: I should kick you in the sides
Posts: 2,265
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05-30-2020, 08:28 AM | #78 | |
Ownz
Posts: 901
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Quote:
The last three decades I would still argue that social issues like racism, health-care, and poverty have generally gotten better, not worse. And America remains a better country to live in than the majority of other countries, both by financial measures and general ones of peace, happiness, and well-being. Sure, that is purchased by fucking up those other countries, but that is beyond the question of "decay." I am not particularly attached to that opinion and I'd be happy to entertain any evidence to the contrary, but so far all I've gotten is "eat dicks" and "you're a priviliged fucking monster." Citing nasty current events doesn't count as "decline" unless you can prove them worse than the past! |
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05-30-2020, 08:36 AM | #79 |
Ownz
Posts: 901
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if you want to change the time scale to 5 years ill give you "decline" but i think that is too small a frame to really indicate "decay" on a national scale
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05-30-2020, 08:44 AM | #80 |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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Historical claim or not, a decline or the onset of decay would only require that the nation be beyond its peak. A rough earlier period is kind of par for the course when looking at any nation over the period you're now discussing because human society in general has come a long way in the last two centuries. This doesn't therefore mean America cannot reasonably be described as decaying or in decline until it begins forcing minorities to work the fields for food and bedding again.
To make either that or your handy comparisons to countries that have always been worse off than America your prerequisite in this for acknowledging a downward shift would be incredibly disingenuous. It'd be about as bad as shifting the burden of proof after being the one to seek to limit what words we can use to describe the state of affairs, though not as bad as doing both things while effectively waving off current events as nothings in the process. |
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05-30-2020, 08:58 AM | #81 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,839
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Economists define "decay" as 12 consecutive economic quarters of decline in the recent spectrum of time.
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05-30-2020, 01:03 PM | #82 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
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Quote:
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05-30-2020, 01:06 PM | #83 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
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also the West quote says America is "decayed," not "decaying," which at least to me implies it is thoroughly rotted through, not in the beginning stages of decay, which I think is part of what ovary is disagreeing with. IMHO it's part of West's rhetorical style, but I don't think that means we should take it literally as in America is near the nadir of its existence
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05-30-2020, 01:09 PM | #84 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
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"a decayed empire that is unable to meet the basic needs of its people"
my issue with this sense of history is that there has never been a time when America met the basic needs of its people, and I do think it is correct to say that for most people, the past was still worse than the present |
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05-30-2020, 01:09 PM | #85 |
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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Because shifting the focus from the actual message to how it's being delivered and appealing to historical "it's been worse before" rhetoric are common tactics for silencing minorities.
It's baffling that you wouldn't see this RBG. |
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05-30-2020, 01:24 PM | #86 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
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Quote:
I do not see an argument over how the message is being delivered. The argument is over the accuracy of the message. Like I said, I think it's part of West's rhetorical style. I don't think it is thusly wrong to take issue with a historical claim he's making. I also know for certain that ovary is on the same page as everyone else here and would not debate that things are going downhill versus 4 years ago especially for minorities. I feel personally that there is the sense that people just don't want to hear any critique of any kind of leftist message whatsoever, and that's a bit too bandwaggony for me and is a problem I encounter a lot personally trying to figure where I fit in on the left. So. The end. |
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05-30-2020, 01:30 PM | #87 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
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Ok, one more.
But again, like I said three times already, the argument here is about the definition of terms and then everyone is veiling that argument within other arguments that aren't even happening. If the issue is "it's not appropriate to critique West's point for accuracy when you understand his bigger point because it introduces unnecessary doubt and obscures the claim," I don't understand why that can't just be stated instead of arguing via strawmen like "how can anyone say things aren't worse now than four years ago?" (when no one said that) now I'm off my soap box. carry on |
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05-30-2020, 01:37 PM | #88 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
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is this the politics thread now? is anyone else protesting tonight? I might go to the White House but I have to figure out how to get down there since I'm sans automocar right now
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05-30-2020, 01:43 PM | #89 | |
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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Quote:
Which is also why I think commenting how West's statement is "historically inaccurate" is disingenuous when it's message is actually commenting on how the virus is disproportionally affecting minorities right now not if the average quality of life is better than before. |
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05-30-2020, 01:52 PM | #90 |
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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Anyway, Mr. West actually contextualizes the whole thing pretty darn well.
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