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Old 04-29-2018, 11:05 PM   #1471
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if darcy came back they still would have sucked ass
this is the troof

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 11:37 PM   #1472
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I think that's what eats D'arcy up, she feels like she was used and strung along by Billy to drum up interest in a high paying tour, when for the last two years she was led to believe she would be back in the band, and when push came to shove he just wanted her in the Adler role to help sell the tour without really reuniting with her.

I don't see why they didn't at least try to get in a room. The original Van Halen lineup tried secretly in 2000 and 2001 and it didn't work at the time, but at least they gave it the college try. Soundgarden secretly met a few times in 2009 before announcing a single show in April 2010. After that went well, they booked two more shows for August 2010. Then after that went well, they booked a North American tour and started recording an album. The Pumpkins should have gone that route, one step at a time to see what would work. The fear probably was that if D'arcy even played one full show with them to start out, if she left after it would hurt potential future paydays.
I was wondering man, and perhaps you have some insight on this, but do you think it's possible that an Adler role for D'arcy was what Billy had in mind the entire time he was in contact wit her? Perhaps he thought that that would be sufficient enough and that she'd be fine with it. There's a lot of theories out there that something in particular happened in regards to Billy deciding against her, but that's hard to imagine considering that he didn't even take the time to meet up with her.

I dunno. This whole thing feels very slapped together in order to make some easy money. Has James Iha even commented about returning to the band? I don't think he's said a thing. I don't know how to describe it exactly, but it just feels like there's been a weird air around this tour.

You usually see these big reunions, and they're always rolled out with big fanfare. Motley Crue comes to mind. They were all together for a press conference when they announced they were back together and embarking on a tour and it was all a big deal. And with STP and Weiland didn't they kick-ass on Kimmel right before announcing that they'd be getting back together and going on tour?

I dunno... Just feels kinda off. I guess there's still a little over 2 months to go before the shows so anything can happen, but usually you'd see artists trying to create an excitement before the tickets go on sale

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 12:26 AM   #1473
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They were still talking by then, friendly talking, she even showed some enthusiasm when he informed her about Jack Bates.

What I really think happened was Darcy wanted to be there and Billy wanted her to be there. She wasn't able to, and she knew she wasn't able to and even tried to push Billy's buttons, Billy realized that it was too much for her to handle at once and offered her a small role (notice, he was still open to have her playing a longer setlist "as long as vibe is right and people are smiling"). She then realized they wouldn't stop the reunion because of her, took offense with the small role offer, got frustrated with James staying on Billy's side and felt she wasn't as important as the other 3 original members. That's when she decided to blow everything up.
Again, these are theories because Corgan won't talk about it. Also, like I've said a million times, why didn't they get in a room together in the last two years? If I was trying to reconcile with an old friend/business partner who I had an ugly falling out with and hadn't spoken to/seen in 16 years, I'd definitely make sure to meet with them in person to re-establish a friendship/trust before even thinking about any business partnership. Otherwise you are bound to have past mistrust issues pop up even just based on insecurities/doubts with communication exclusively via text/phone.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 01:16 AM   #1474
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I was wondering man, and perhaps you have some insight on this, but do you think it's possible that an Adler role for D'arcy was what Billy had in mind the entire time he was in contact wit her? Perhaps he thought that that would be sufficient enough and that she'd be fine with it. There's a lot of theories out there that something in particular happened in regards to Billy deciding against her, but that's hard to imagine considering that he didn't even take the time to meet up with her.

I dunno. This whole thing feels very slapped together in order to make some easy money. Has James Iha even commented about returning to the band? I don't think he's said a thing. I don't know how to describe it exactly, but it just feels like there's been a weird air around this tour.

You usually see these big reunions, and they're always rolled out with big fanfare. Motley Crue comes to mind. They were all together for a press conference when they announced they were back together and embarking on a tour and it was all a big deal. And with STP and Weiland didn't they kick-ass on Kimmel right before announcing that they'd be getting back together and going on tour?

I dunno... Just feels kinda off. I guess there's still a little over 2 months to go before the shows so anything can happen, but usually you'd see artists trying to create an excitement before the tickets go on sale
STP's reunion had ups and downs, but the 2008 tour was huge for them, and it had the right amount of hype. They first announced the Rock on the Range reunion performance and released a new photoshoot. They announced the tour with a great performance at the Houdini Mansion, played Kimmel, and headlined the Rock on the Range festival to kick it off. Scott was drinking/on drugs so there were great nights and shit nights, but ultimately the tour was a success.

The inherent problem with this is that D'arcy is not there. Take when they released the Billy/James/Jimmy/Jeff photoshoot and behind the scenes video for it, it wasn't really a big deal. I think Alternative Nation is the only site that actually did a story based around the photo/video. Now if that was the first photo of the original lineup together in years, and a VIDEO of them hanging out behind the scenes? Everybody would have been going nuts over it and it would have been viral.

The reason why STP and Soundgarden's reunion tours were successful is that the entire lineups were there. I actually think a Pumpkins reunion with the original lineup could have been bigger than either of those due the time that has passed, and the fact that those two bands and others from the 90's are now incapable of trotting out their original lineups. That's what makes this really suck, all four of them could be hailed right now as some of the last survivors of the 90's rising like a phoenix to carry on their generation's sound. It sucks that Billy, James, Jimmy, and D'arcy won't get the celebration together that they deserve for their legacy.

My criticism of Billy's handling of this is actually because I'm a huge fan of his, and it's sad that he's not going to get his moment of triumph this year that I thought he'd have and was excited about for the last two years. It still could be a really great tour with some really great music, but he's not going to have the moment he could have if it was the entire original lineup. He could have finally become the well respected voice of a generation he's wanted to be, and deserves to be.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 01:46 AM   #1475
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Again, these are theories because Corgan won't talk about it. Also, like I've said a million times, why didn't they get in a room together in the last two years? If I was trying to reconcile with an old friend/business partner who I had an ugly falling out with and hadn't spoken to/seen in 16 years, I'd definitely make sure to meet with them in person to re-establish a friendship/trust before even thinking about any business partnership. Otherwise you are bound to have past mistrust issues pop up even just based on insecurities/doubts with communication exclusively via text/phone.
But whatever Corgan says, it won't be enough. People won't believe him unless huge shows proof... He can say he invited her his solo tour (and that would explain why he tells her "the tour is over, you missed it"), that he invited her to play a couple of gigs with the pumpkins like he did with James or again that she was invited to play with them, to record demos, to meet face to face, like tee pumpkins statement says.... It will never be enough.

I wouldn't be surprised the Steven Adler plan was the idea since ever but again I wouldn't say Billy is wrong about it. What would you do if you were on his shoes planning a reunion with someone who last time you saw was neck deep in drugs, stopped making music since then, disappeared from the public eyes to only make the news again for the mugshots and drink driving incidents. Specially if they did try to meet with her.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 02:36 AM   #1476
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But whatever Corgan says, it won't be enough. People won't believe him unless huge shows proof... He can say he invited her his solo tour (and that would explain why he tells her "the tour is over, you missed it"), that he invited her to play a couple of gigs with the pumpkins like he did with James or again that she was invited to play with them, to record demos, to meet face to face, like tee pumpkins statement says.... It will never be enough.

I wouldn't be surprised the Steven Adler plan was the idea since ever but again I wouldn't say Billy is wrong about it. What would you do if you were on his shoes planning a reunion with someone who last time you saw was neck deep in drugs, stopped making music since then, disappeared from the public eyes to only make the news again for the mugshots and drink driving incidents. Specially if they did try to meet with her.
It wouldn't 'never be enough' to me. Maybe some other people here, but I am no hater of Billy Corgan. Just because I like D'arcy and am friendly with her doesn't mean I am not a fan of Billy's.

If he has those stories to tell, I'd love to hear them. But if he won't tell them, or doesn't actually have the stories, we are simply playing a guessing game as long as he is silent. That's what makes the situation more frustrating, I'd genuinely like to hear what he has to say without the verbiage he uses to disguise himself on Instagram.

Again, just based on what we know (which is not much from him), I would have made every effort to meet in person before ever getting in serious discussions about any sort of major tours. I also wouldn't start planning a reunion until I actually met in person with everybody.

If he had met with D'arcy in 2016 and it just didn't click, they could have amicably at that point not reunited on a musical level, before ever even getting into deep discussions about it. It would have saved fans from the year and a half of Billy talking about her in interviews/the full original band reuniting, which ended up leading to blue balls in the end.

Billy is in the wrestling business and should understand this analogy: you don't hype a match if you aren't sure you can book it. It'd be like Vince McMahon teasing fans for two years that Steve Austin was going to come out of retirement to face The Rock and Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania, and then at the last minute Vince announces it's just The Rock vs. Brock Lesnar.

Billy could have had James rejoin the band without the context of a 'reunion' if he'd had a meeting with D'arcy and hypothetically things didn't work out (and hey, WHAT IF THEY DID WORK OUT if they had met?) and things could have been friendlier than they are now with D'arcy. The big issue is she felt strung along. If James had officially rejoined in 2016 or 2017 without it being hyped as 'the original lineup is back,' and then D'arcy was later invited as a guest in a different context, this would all be way different IMO.

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Old 04-30-2018, 02:45 AM   #1477
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I was wondering man, and perhaps you have some insight on this, but do you think it's possible that an Adler role for D'arcy was what Billy had in mind the entire time he was in contact wit her?
...and here's the answer >>>

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Also, like I've said a million times, why didn't they get in a room together in the last two years?
Billy never wanted a real reunion.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 02:59 AM   #1478
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Billy probably thought:

I can't handle D'Arcy being the moral compass of the band again.
Jack Bates doesn't question any of my decisions. I need the tour to be succesful so
I don't want to take any risks with D'Arcy.
She surely needs some money so she'll agree to an Adler role. I don't have to put any energy into re-establishing a musical relationship with D'Arcy so there's no need to meet her.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:40 AM   #1479
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Jimmy Chamberlin was the first talking publicly about tour plans with the Smashing Pumpkins a year ago. Including all four original members.
But has still never been in contact with D'arcy since nineteen years.

James Iha has last spoken to D'arcy in 2016 or 2017.
Refuses to answer her attempts to get in touch with him since then.

Billy Corgan was the only person of the three, D’arcy really ever was in communication with for one and a half year -until January. But only by text messages and some phone calls.
Was it only a lack of interest of the others, not to reach out to her?
Did they already know about a plan of Corgan, to give her only just a guest role?

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Old 04-30-2018, 05:35 AM   #1480
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Jimmy Chamberlin was the first talking publicly about tour plans with the Smashing Pumpkins a year ago. Including all four original members.
But has still never been in contact with D'arcy since nineteen years.

>>>


June 2017:

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"We were talking about playing next year with the band and somebody asked me, you know, 'What's it like trying to coordinate that?' I said it's like Grumpy Old Men 3, only there's four grumpy old men and one's a woman.' So [laughs]…that's how it's gotten to be, when we're all kind of crotchety [imitates an old person]."
http://loudwire.com/jimmy-chamberlai...en-ones-woman/

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:59 AM   #1481
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It wouldn't 'never be enough' to me. Maybe some other people here, but I am no hater of Billy Corgan. Just because I like D'arcy and am friendly with her doesn't mean I am not a fan of Billy's.

If he has those stories to tell, I'd love to hear them. But if he won't tell them, or doesn't actually have the stories, we are simply playing a guessing game as long as he is silent. That's what makes the situation more frustrating, I'd genuinely like to hear what he has to say without the verbiage he uses to disguise himself on Instagram.

Again, just based on what we know (which is not much from him), I would have made every effort to meet in person before ever getting in serious discussions about any sort of major tours. I also wouldn't start planning a reunion until I actually met in person with everybody.

If he had met with D'arcy in 2016 and it just didn't click, they could have amicably at that point not reunited on a musical level, before ever even getting into deep discussions about it. It would have saved fans from the year and a half of Billy talking about her in interviews/the full original band reuniting, which ended up leading to blue balls in the end.

Billy is in the wrestling business and should understand this analogy: you don't hype a match if you aren't sure you can book it. It'd be like Vince McMahon teasing fans for two years that Steve Austin was going to come out of retirement to face The Rock and Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania, and then at the last minute Vince announces it's just The Rock vs. Brock Lesnar.

Billy could have had James rejoin the band without the context of a 'reunion' if he'd had a meeting with D'arcy and hypothetically things didn't work out (and hey, WHAT IF THEY DID WORK OUT if they had met?) and things could have been friendlier than they are now with D'arcy. The big issue is she felt strung along. If James had officially rejoined in 2016 or 2017 without it being hyped as 'the original lineup is back,' and then D'arcy was later invited as a guest in a different context, this would all be way different IMO.
But we know Billy will say Darcy was invited, to play, to record demos, to meet for a coffee or whatever. Even for the non haters, it won't be enough as in it will be his word against hers. You as a journalist would take his word for granted?

Actually, I can't see what else Billy or the band could add to this narrative without sharing some nasty stories about her or, as I said before, sharing messages where they clearly invited her over.

I agree they didn't know how to manage this whole negotiation. Billy preferred using the low pressure, open door policy with her, for which we can only speculate why - maybe he was really concerned about her, maybe he just didn't want her to be in his way. We also can only speculate about why they didn't meet before - Darcy says she was never invited or that she couldn't be there due to her shoulder, on the other hand the band says she was invited several times but she always deferred.

What people is not taking in consideration is that Darcy story doesn't add up. Even if it's true that Billy only wanted her there for 2 songs and sing Daydream, they would still need to meet, to get her on board for rehearsing and see how she's really doing mentally, physically and musically. Or do you think she would just show up for the first gig without going through the process?

Over the years I've learned that if things don't make sense they usually aren't true. And by that I'm not saying she's deliberately lying, but maybe whatever she felt was happening wasn't actually happening.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:11 AM   #1482
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What people is not taking in consideration is that Darcy story doesn't add up. Even if it's true that Billy only wanted her there for 2 songs and sing Daydream, they would still need to meet, to get her on board for rehearsing and see how she's really doing mentally, physically and musically. Or do you think she would just show up for the first gig without going through the process?

Over the years I've learned that if things don't make sense they usually aren't true. And by that I'm not saying she's deliberately lying, but maybe whatever she felt was happening wasn't actually happening.
If anything what you’re saying supports D’arcy’s story. It was Billy’s offer to her that didn’t add up. Because he was never serious about working with her again. She’s shown us the texts.

Corgan made a vague statement and got his mate to smear D’arcy with the Mancow photo. He did that instead of showing us evidence of her declining to meet on multiple occasions. Who would you believe in this situation?

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Old 04-30-2018, 08:23 AM   #1483
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If anything what you’re saying supports D’arcy’s story. It was Billy’s offer to her that didn’t add up. Because he was never serious about working with her again.
So you're saying he reconnected with her after 19 years of zero communication, told her he got himself "into a bit of a hole", that he borrowed "a LOT of $$$ from someone in the SoundGarden camp" , shared plans about the reunion and the tour that she "HELPED PLAN FOR 1 & 1/2 years" because he was never serious about working with her again? Really?

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:43 AM   #1484
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So you're saying he reconnected with her after 19 years of zero communication, told her he got himself "into a bit of a hole", that he borrowed "a LOT of $$$ from someone in the SoundGarden camp" , shared plans about the reunion and the tour that she "HELPED PLAN FOR 1 & 1/2 years" because he was never serious about working with her again? Really?
Never said Corgan was smart or sane. These were tactics to win her confidence or just thoughtless oversharing.

If he was serious he would have met her prior to discussing the potential of a huge make-or-break tour.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:05 AM   #1485
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Never said Corgan was smart or sane. These were tactics to win her confidence or just thoughtless oversharing.

If he was serious he would have met her prior to discussing the potential of a huge make-or-break tour.
Win her confidence for what, if he didn't want to work with her? It doesn't make sense.

Again, we can only speculate why they never met - She will say she was never invited, they will say she declined the invitations.

It's a fact Billy would go ahead with the reunion even without her probably because they were never sure if she was able to be part of it (for the circumstances involving her), but that doesn't mean he didn't want her to be part of if she was able to.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:17 AM   #1486
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My guess would be that D'arcy, having not been in the music business for 19 years, didn't immediately jump at every opportunity Corgan gave her to meet up with him (e.g. during the solo tour). Corgan probably interpreted this as "deferring" when the reality was, she remained interested in being a part of the band (you can tell she truly felt hurt when she saw Billy, Jimmy, James, and Jeff in the studio without her). It goes back to the main disagreement Corgan admits he had with D'arcy during the band's heyday. He considers the band the end all be all of his professional and personal life, whereas D'arcy puts other priorities above the band.

As for why Jimmy and James didn't reach out...

From what I've been told, Jimmy has purposefully taken a "hands off" approach to being in the band since he returned in 2015. Jimmy took a more active approach in handling the band's business affairs from 2006 to 2008, which led to many disagreements since Corgan had final say in the matters (although he apparently took Jimmy's opinion into consideration). Jimmy felt this was one of the biggest factors that led to him and Corgan falling out in 2009, and decided that if he was to re-join, he wanted to focus exclusively on music. He joins the band for rehearsals and shows, and pretty much has no other involvement in the day-to-day matters of the band. I imagine the idea of trying to mediate between Billy and D'arcy was the last thing he wanted to do, particularly when Jimmy has said before that he enjoys playing with other bassists more than D'arcy.

As for James, I do not think it could be more obvious this is a financial decision for him. I am not slighting him. The dude just turned 50 and has a wife and two children. He deserves to be able to profit off a band he co-founded and played a vital part in its success; particularly after Corgan spent almost a decade squandering the band's accumulated goodwill. Hey, Iha may even have some fun playing on the tour, but the money probably speaks more to him at this point in his life than staying in touch with a woman he only spoke to sporadically.

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Old 04-30-2018, 09:20 AM   #1487
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My guess would be that D'arcy, having not been in the music business for 19 years, didn't immediately jump at every opportunity Corgan gave her to meet up with him (e.g. during the solo tour). Corgan probably interpreted this as "deferring" when the reality was, she remained interested in being a part of the band (you can tell she truly felt hurt when she saw Billy, Jimmy, James, and Jeff in the studio without her). It goes back to the main disagreement Corgan admits he had with D'arcy during the band's heyday. He considers the band the end all be all of his professional and personal life, whereas D'arcy puts other priorities above the band.
But then you're saying she's lying cause she says they never invited her.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:26 AM   #1488
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But then you're saying she's lying cause she says they never invited her.
Or maybe what Corgan considers an "invitation" and what D'arcy considers an "invitation" remain two different things, resulting in a misunderstanding. It may not be as black and white a situation as it appears. D'arcy clarified in the AN regarding the final Metro show and the 2007 reunion that Corgan considered presenting opportunities to join him through third parties an "invitation," whereas D'arcy only wants personal invitations.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:29 AM   #1489
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Or maybe what Corgan considers an "invitation" and what D'arcy considers an "invitation" remain two different things, resulting in a misunderstanding. It may not be as black and white a situation as it appears.
Maybe, but then either she "didn't immediately jump at every opportunity Corgan gave her to meet up with him" or she was never invited. It can't be both.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:50 AM   #1490
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Maybe he tried and it didn't happen. And that's how he came up with the Steven Adler plan. Just speculating here.

We know that with James and Jimmy involved, Darcy not being there wouldn't stop this tour to happen - mainly because they were never sure she was able to. I understand people being unhappy with them playing under the pumpkins name without Darcy, but this is happening since 1999. Or 1997, when Jimmy wasn't there for a few years.
Are you Billy Corgan? Jesus christ you've got a lot of sureties in regards to a lot of this. Either that or you're the biggest wpc apologist in the planet. Fucking hell.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 11:45 AM   #1491
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Maybe, but then either she "didn't immediately jump at every opportunity Corgan gave her to meet up with him" or she was never invited. It can't be both.
The In Plainsong tour would have been the perfect time to invite D'arcy on stage like James was.

This should have happened.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 11:45 AM   #1492
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Bc apologist? I'm being very reasonable with darcy and Billy here. Even tho I'm a netphorian, I'm not a hater at all.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 11:53 AM   #1493
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The In Plainsong tour would have been the perfect time to invite D'arcy on stage like James was.

This should have happened.
I totally agree with that, but we don't know if he didn't invite her. She talks about it on one of her interviews

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In fact, my feelings were a little bit hurt because he did the solo album tour, and he didn’t tell me when it started. I was texting him saying, ‘Where the fuck are you dumbass?’ He’s like, ‘Oh, I’m in New York. The tour started.’ Then I’m like, ‘Where are you?’ ‘Oh, the tour ended, you missed it.’
I don't understand why Billy would say "you missed it" if he hadn't invited her. Maybe she wanted a formal invitation, and Billy was trying to keep things simple as in "hey, I'm playing Michigan on my solo tour, I'd love to see you there". And Darcy was like "well, if he wants me there he should invite me".

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 12:07 PM   #1494
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Billy really did try but unfortunately he just hasn't got the required "skill set" for meeting up with old friends. It's heartbreaking really.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 12:11 PM   #1495
amoergosum
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Originally Posted by incubator View Post
Billy really did try

D'Arcy invited Billy to come to her farm...he wasn't interested.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 12:13 PM   #1496
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My sources say that they DID 100% all meet up in person. Unfortunately Billys artistic vision for the in person meet up was so grandiose that he had no choice but to eat her lunch and do her bits of conversation for her.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 12:17 PM   #1497
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D'Arcy invited Billy to come to her farm...he wasn't interested.
Billys vision for meeting up did NOT ******* a trip to some farm.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 12:23 PM   #1498
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I don't understand why Billy would say "you missed it" if he hadn't invited her. Maybe she wanted a formal invitation, and Billy was trying to keep things simple as in "hey, I'm playing Michigan on my solo tour, I'd love to see you there". And Darcy was like "well, if he wants me there he should invite me".
This was exactly what I said...

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 01:55 PM   #1499
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Just finished writing an article about D'arcy's greatest vocal performances for her 50th birthday tomorrow. Everyone feel free to write her happy birthday wishes in the comments on there once it's up, as I'll send her the piece once it's up.

 
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Old 04-30-2018, 03:27 PM   #1500
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