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Old 09-20-2018, 12:48 PM   #121
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what's even worse for the environment is having children

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:50 PM   #122
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COLD HARD FACTS

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:08 PM   #123
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what's even worse for the environment is having children
A lot of that depends on lifestyle and location. If you live in an area where energy and heat are created with fossil fuels, and you choose to heat an additional room in your house through the winter for your baby, and immediately upgrade to a people mover even though you only have one baby in a car seat to fit into your car, and you buy dairy based formula to feed your child instead of breastfeeding, yes, immediately your carbon footprint is enlarged.

If you live in an area with mostly renewable energy, and your baby sleeps in the same room as you, and you don’t buy a bigger car and don’t use your ordinary car any more than usual, and you breastfeed...actually your carbon footprint isn’t that much bigger.

As I understand it, fertility rates are highest in developing countries and those children hardly damage the environment at all.

It’s having children in developed countries, and enlarging an already wasteful lifestyle, that is damaging the environment.

I live in hope that raising children to be mindful of waste and pollution and what constitutes a sustainable lifestyle, will mean that there is a generation after us that is more committed and aware of the problems that lie ahead.

People like to laugh at climate science deniers, but at the same time of you look at what they are prepared to change in their own lives, in response to the evidence presented by climate scientists, you’d think it really was fake news

There’s a lot of “oh I need....” and “it’s no big deal....” “it’s not really my contribution that counts...”

Well, whatever people need to tell themselves, I guess. I mean, I totally ******* myself in that group. I make terrible decisions all the time. But I don’t laugh about it and call people crazy when they call me out for it, I guess is the difference

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:12 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
That’s true, and it was corporations that monetised pregnancy, child birth, infant feeding and diapering. But I don’t think that means that parents can avoid taking responsibility for their own choices in these areas.

From Wikipedia:


A huge part of being a parent is making choices that are about more than your own convenience. Thinking ahead and considering how your actions will affect your child’s future is a daily event for a thoughtful parent. Not caring about your contribution to landfill, and not caring about your interaction and transactions with profit seeking corporations that have created a billion dollar industry out of providing a wasteful, polluting solution to diapering...is, as I said before...in my opinion, immature, irresponsible and wasteful
I always hear references to "mom shaming" and I'm pretty lucky that I haven't had to experience much of it. So in my naiveté, when I heard people describe someone like you, I thought they had to be joking. "No one can be THAT wrapped up in their own shit!" I thought. "How isolating!" I thought.

Well, thank you for helping me expand my world view.

If there is one thing I have learned as a parent, it's to judge less. Every time I make a sweeping judgement of someone's decisions or some topic--I find myself in that same place months later, saying "oh... I get where they were coming from" It's humbling! As an example, while I was pregnant, I was vehemently against co-sleeping. There was no part of my brain that could understand why someone would do it. The studies! The doctors! The FACTS!

Flash forward to maybe the second week after my son was born. I was in pretty intense pain after having an emergency C-section, and I was getting in and out of bed 100 times each night (it felt like...) to breastfeed him or just to check to see if he was still breathing. It was awful, it hurt so bad, and I wasn't sleeping. So, I brought him into bed with me. And it felt... perfect. It felt like THAT was how a mother and baby should sleep. And we did co-sleep for about a year, until I stopped having to breastfeed him in the middle of the night.

I don't know why I'm saying any of this, because you aren't going to read it with an open mind anyway, or just nit pick it for any shred of "bad parenting" on my part. I am a good mother, and I'm not looking for any validation here. Just wanted to get my thoughts off my chest.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:12 PM   #125
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you've pretty much tripled your carbon footprint in the end

while that bachelor brother of yours just didn't want to wash a pan

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:13 PM   #126
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also my job lets me dig big holes in the ground that I can fill with hundreds of thousands of tons of baby diapers and disposable silverware

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:13 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
A lot of that depends on lifestyle and location. If you live in an area where energy and heat are created with fossil fuels, and you choose to heat an additional room in your house through the winter for your baby, and immediately upgrade to a people mover even though you only have one baby in a car seat to fit into your car, and you buy dairy based formula to feed your child instead of breastfeeding, yes, immediately your carbon footprint is enlarged.

If you live in an area with mostly renewable energy, and your baby sleeps in the same room as you, and you don’t buy a bigger car and don’t use your ordinary car any more than usual, and you breastfeed...actually your carbon footprint isn’t that much bigger.

As I understand it, fertility rates are highest in developing countries and those children hardly damage the environment at all.

It’s having children in developed countries, and enlarging an already wasteful lifestyle, that is damaging the environment.

I live in hope that raising children to be mindful of waste and pollution and what constitutes a sustainable lifestyle, will mean that there is a generation after us that is more committed and aware of the problems that lie ahead.

People like to laugh at climate science deniers, but at the same time of you look at what they are prepared to change in their own lives, in response to the evidence presented by climate scientists, you’d think it really was fake news

There’s a lot of “oh I need....” and “it’s no big deal....” “it’s not really my contribution that counts...”

Well, whatever people need to tell themselves, I guess. I mean, I totally ******* myself in that group. I make terrible decisions all the time. But I don’t laugh about it and call people crazy when they call me out for it, I guess is the difference
I would actually say that any choice you make personally to reduce, reuse, recycle, etc. is more about feeling like you as a person are being moral and doing the right thing than actually making a difference. D is right. Big corporations are to blame, and then they sell the public on the idea that you can "make a difference" by using less straws and stuff.

I want to elaborate that I am very much in favor of reducing, reusing, and recycling in any way possible, and I think everyone should try to do as much as they can... but I think it's more about saving our souls so to speak than actually doing something positive for the world. If that was our concern, people would just not have children.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:16 PM   #128
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Jesus is coming back (soon!) to burn this place down to a cinder.

Might as well trash it.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:19 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by bardy View Post
I always hear references to "mom shaming" and I'm pretty lucky that I haven't had to experience much of it. So in my naiveté, when I heard people describe someone like you, I thought they had to be joking. "No one can be THAT wrapped up in their own shit!" I thought. "How isolating!" I thought.

Well, thank you for helping me expand my world view.

If there is one thing I have learned as a parent, it's to judge less. Every time I make a sweeping judgement of someone's decisions or some topic--I find myself in that same place months later, saying "oh... I get where they were coming from" It's humbling! As an example, while I was pregnant, I was vehemently against co-sleeping. There was no part of my brain that could understand why someone would do it. The studies! The doctors! The FACTS!

Flash forward to maybe the second week after my son was born. I was in pretty intense pain after having an emergency C-section, and I was getting in and out of bed 100 times each night (it felt like...) to breastfeed him or just to check to see if he was still breathing. It was awful, it hurt so bad, and I wasn't sleeping. So, I brought him into bed with me. And it felt... perfect. It felt like THAT was how a mother and baby should sleep. And we did co-sleep for about a year, until I stopped having to breastfeed him in the middle of the night.

I don't know why I'm saying any of this, because you aren't going to read it with an open mind anyway, or just nit pick it for any shred of "bad parenting" on my part. I am a good mother, and I'm not looking for any validation here. Just wanted to get my thoughts off my chest.
I started co sleeping with my first son after his already terrible sleep patterns regressed, when he was four months old. My second child, I didn’t bother even trying to put him in his own bed. We have moved around so much that my younger child just has a bed in our room, so that if he wakes up in the night and wants to sleep with us, he can just jump into that bed. He’s nearly 10, but he has severe myopia and idiopathic generalised epilepsy so he tends toward anxiety at night time, because he can’t see well and sleep is a trigger for seizures.

Most of the facts say that sleeping with the baby close enough to its Mother that it can regulate its breathing, protects against SIDS. Co-sleeping is actually parenting best practice IMO.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:19 PM   #130
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I do think it is possible to make a difference on a small community level if you get a bunch of like-minded people together. For instance, my municipality taxes plastic bags (5 cents each), and it has supposedly really reduced the amount of new plastic litter being introduced into the environment here.

But I also know that in India and Africa people live everyday right next to fucking mountains of discarded plastic bags, and I have basically no power to solve that problem, nor do the people living there. So I can help to clean up my own little already tidy, already mostly affluent sector of the world, but I don't really believe the bag tax which affects the one million residents who live here is doing much or anything measurable at all on a global save the world scale.

in a way it's almost more like a throw up the walls type thing. the outside world is fucked, let's make sure OUR tiny little place is kept nice

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:22 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
I would actually say that any choice you make personally to reduce, reuse, recycle, etc. is more about feeling like you as a person are being moral and doing the right thing than actually making a difference. D is right. Big corporations are to blame, and then they sell the public on the idea that you can "make a difference" by using less straws and stuff.

I want to elaborate that I am very much in favor of reducing, reusing, and recycling in any way possible, and I think everyone should try to do as much as they can... but I think it's more about saving our souls so to speak than actually doing something positive for the world. If that was our concern, people would just not have children.
3.4 million tons of diapers per year is still a lot of landfill, and that is completely within control of individuals. I think it’s increasing, too.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:23 PM   #132
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3.4 million tons of diapers per year is still a lot of landfill, and that is completely within control of individuals. I think it’s increasing, too.
it's not in the control of individuals though. It's in an individual's control to stop their own personal use of diapers. I think it's kind of an illusion created by the real polluters that "we" have the power to stop 3.4 million tons of diapers from being used

when you consider how many people do not have the education or the knowledge to care, or feel like they are in a situation where the trade-off is worth it for personal convenience or because maybe they simply don't have to time or resources to wash a diaper over and over... I mean people have all sorts of reasons and excuses, but I just kind of think this idea that the power is in OUR hands or something is an illusion. It's about so much more than personal choice

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:24 PM   #133
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so what do you use if not disposable diapers? the cloth ones? did you wash after every dump?

i think i'd rather sacrifice the planet tbh.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:28 PM   #134
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You can insert any big evil thing corporations are doing to kind of the same end I think. Sweatshop labor, or whatever. If it were really just as easy as making a choice, I don't think people would find it that hard to make the right choice. All these things are caught up in global systems of economic exchange and politicking, and it's actually not that easy to act against "the system" in a lot of cases

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:30 PM   #135
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ye but did you ever listen to Remain in Light
I own it, yeah. And I hardly ever listen to it.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:30 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
I do think it is possible to make a difference on a small community level if you get a bunch of like-minded people together. For instance, my municipality taxes plastic bags (5 cents each), and it has supposedly really reduced the amount of new plastic litter being introduced into the environment here.

But I also know that in India and Africa people live everyday right next to fucking mountains of discarded plastic bags, and I have basically no power to solve that problem, nor do the people living there. So I can help to clean up my own little already tidy, already mostly affluent sector of the world, but I don't really believe the bag tax which affects the one million residents who live here is doing much or anything measurable at all on a global save the world scale.

in a way it's almost more like a throw up the walls type thing. the outside world is fucked, let's make sure OUR tiny little place is kept nice
This is all true, but if people in developed countries had made an effort to live zero waste lifestyles or close to it, 30 years ago...we would have a LOT fewer trash mounds in India. It’s easy to forget how recent packaging and disposable products came into use. It’s barely been 100 years that we’ve had this problem, and it’s so enormous, but at the same time, actually pretty easy to put an end to. It’s well worth privileged communities becoming interested in zero waste because less privileged people aspire to recreate that privilege for themselves and may well adopt new attitudes toward consumption, etc., because those attitudes have become fashionable. I mean, look at things like gluten free diets, paleo eating, veganism etc... zero waste could be next, and then suddenly the trash heaps stop growing. That would be great progress.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:35 PM   #137
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This is all true, but if people in developed countries had made an effort to live zero waste lifestyles or close to it, 30 years ago...we would have a LOT fewer trash mounds in India. It’s easy to forget how recent packaging and disposable products came into use. It’s barely been 100 years that we’ve had this problem, and it’s so enormous, but at the same time, actually pretty easy to put an end to. It’s well worth privileged communities becoming interested in zero waste because less privileged people aspire to recreate that privilege for themselves and may well adopt new attitudes toward consumption, etc., because those attitudes have become fashionable. I mean, look at things like gluten free diets, paleo eating, veganism etc... zero waste could be next, and then suddenly the trash heaps stop growing. That would be great progress.
all things considered, I think the fact that the population has increased sevenfold in the last 200 years has more to do with the amount of trash than people refusing to not use plastic products. There are too many people creating waste.

reducing waste has already been "trendy" for like the last 30 years in the US at least. recycling and green programs are a pretty big deal in most cities in the US and even as a kid I remember being trained in school about reducing waste, how plastic is forever, etc. etc. I don't think it is as much an issue of people just not wanting to do it as you are making it out to be. It's really hard to act against a system of 7 billion people and make a difference.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:36 PM   #138
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also I think most of the trash mountains in India are not like exported there, they come from India. The population is very dense and people don't have a lot of alternatives to wasteful products. It's the exact same reasons people in the developed world have trouble changing, but their economic disadvantage makes them that much more susceptible to not being able to combat the larger system

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:38 PM   #139
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so what do you use if not disposable diapers? the cloth ones? did you wash after every dump?

i think i'd rather sacrifice the planet tbh.
Yes, of course. I had worked in a rest home before having children, cleaning up after elderly people who had accidents. And in the one case, cleaning up after a resident who enjoyed smearing his own shit on the walls with his hands. I hand to shower then and put anti fungal cream on their raw red sex organs. It was pretty intense. After that job, washing diapers was like a walk in the park.

As I say...disposable products are really new. Women (for the most part) have had to do the work of washing diapers for generations, unless they lived in climates where babies could mostly go naked. I also did infant potty training - so both of mine used a potty from when they were a few months old. That saved a fair few soiled diapers and was much easier to clean up after.

I actually think disposables are worse with the yuck factor, too. Rinsing diapers isn’t fun, but they’re clean and hanging on the line within 24hours. Disposables can sit in a trash cash for a week outside your house until trash day. I think that’s just as gross, if not more gross

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:43 PM   #140
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also I think most of the trash mountains in India are not like exported there, they come from India. The population is very dense and people don't have a lot of alternatives to wasteful products. It's the exact same reasons people in the developed world have trouble changing, but their economic disadvantage makes them that much more susceptible to not being able to combat the larger system
I guess that would be right. I’ve never been but it seems like it would be a hard place to make changes. On the plus side, most mothers who can afford disposable diapers can also afford maids, so that change might happen fairly quickly because it only takes a change of instructions, from the person who makes the decisions.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:47 PM   #141
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all things considered, I think the fact that the population has increased sevenfold in the last 200 years has more to do with the amount of trash than people refusing to not use plastic products. There are too many people creating waste.

reducing waste has already been "trendy" for like the last 30 years in the US at least. recycling and green programs are a pretty big deal in most cities in the US and even as a kid I remember being trained in school about reducing waste, how plastic is forever, etc. etc. I don't think it is as much an issue of people just not wanting to do it as you are making it out to be. It's really hard to act against a system of 7 billion people and make a difference.
I think we’ve already realised though, that recycling is pretty futile and that the only way forward is compostable or zero waste. The green programs have been more like token gestuares than a commitment to long term change.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:08 PM   #142
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I own it, yeah. And I hardly ever listen to it.
you do you, buttrock away

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:08 PM   #143
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wow that's pretty hardcore vixnix; i mean your work with the elderly. and i thought cleaning cells on the intake level was bad...

when you rinse the diapers where does the waste go? and where would you do it? it a regular sink? good point about women doing this for ages before. there's so much we get used to and forget that things were different for so long.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:09 PM   #144
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you do you, buttrock away
eat some poo

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:09 PM   #145
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elphenor have you ever listened to sleep's holy mountain?

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:10 PM   #146
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you do you, buttrock away
I will. My Talking Heads collection is eclipsed by my Rush discography.

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:19 PM   #147
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most mothers who can afford disposable diapers can also afford maids
may I use that as sig, please?

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:19 PM   #148
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so what do you use if not disposable diapers? the cloth ones? did you wash after every dump?

i think i'd rather sacrifice the planet tbh.
exactly. i'd like to actually spend time with my kid every once in a while. i already feel like i am doing housework constantly. and sometimes when i need to shower or clean a room that she can't be playing in (bathroom, laundry room) she is allowed to *gasp* watch TV so i can get it done. that is not going to hurt her!

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:21 PM   #149
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what's even worse for the environment is having children
what if the child grows up to solve environmental problems in the perfect way???

 
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:26 PM   #150
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fake bacon.
facon!!

 
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