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Old 06-29-2018, 09:57 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by LaBelle View Post
You are mirepresenting what I said to make me look bad.
Are you gonna disagree that society treats women as sexual meat currency and that many many women have trouble not viewing themselves in that way?
Are you gonna disagree that fame, money and admiration can be a huge influence for someone wanting to sleep with someone else?
no Labelle, I'm not, I can disgaree with what you actually said - and what I wrote is what you literally said - in the context of women who sleep with band members after concerts. and no, I am not disagreeing with any of that. I am disagreeing with you going

"sex happened - women are this - society is this -ergo that's how it went down." that I am disagreeing with, you can't put women in one pot, nor people in general, nor sexual encounters that weren't yours, and that is precisely what you were doing.

me completely disagreeing with what you are arguing here is not "trying to make you look bad" - I can simply disagree with your comments, can I not?

or does that conflate with all women who see similar problems in general have to have the same perspective and opinion, and the same sexual experiences on top of it...

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:58 PM   #62
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NO GO LOOK AT PUSSY PHOTOS

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:59 PM   #63
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no Labelle, I'm not, I can disgaree with what you actually said - and what I wrote is what you literally said - in the context of women who sleep with band members after concerts. and no, I am not disagreeing with any of that. I am disagreeing with you going

"sex happened - women are this - society is this -ergo that's how it went down." that I am disagreeing with, you can't put women in one pot, nor people in general, nor sexual encounters that weren't yours, and that is precisely what you were doing.

me completely disagreeing with what you are arguing here is not "trying to make you look bad" - I can simply disagree with your comments, can I not?
Ofc you can disagree all you want, but you are removing what I said from the context that "this guy is abusing his position to get sex and I think that's gross" and misconstruing it as an attack on women which is not what I was getting at at all.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:14 PM   #64
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Nekko Case complained that the groupie thing doesn't work for women, "No ladies in bands don't get ANY action"

is it cultural, is it natural, is it bad, that even if you are adored for your talent as a woman you may still rely on your physical self where as men can pretty much be liberated from it

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:19 PM   #65
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I kind of side with Labelle on this one.

I mean the guy goes around having staff hand out laminates with women sucking dick in KISS makeup (as if it's a Willy Wonka golden ticket) to hot girls in the audience and then he has em line up backstage like a meat-market to then get carded and then presuming they're at least 18, Maynard struts in and takes his pick? (How cheap would it feel to the women who don't get picked?) Jeeze, I know there's nothing illegal about it but he obviously just sees women as an object to fuck.

I suppose it reflects worse on the women themselves. Just willing to give themselves up for a cheap fuck on a bus because the guy sings on some songs they like.

Regardless of the situation, it doesn't seem like this Maynard guy has much of a moral compass.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:23 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by LaBelle View Post
the context that "this guy is abusing his position to get sex and I think that's gross" and misconstruing it as an attack on women which is not what I was getting at at all.
if it is not a criticism of women, at all, then how come this post still includes that he is abusing his position to get sex - which includes abuse - which includes that the woman who says yes is on the receiving end of an abuse of at least power. what does that make her. what, exactly, does that make her? and with her I mean every single woman who ever went backstage and had sex with say Maynard.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:28 PM   #67
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I kind of side with Labelle on this one.

I mean the guy goes around having staff hand out laminates with women sucking dick in KISS makeup (as if it's a Willy Wonka golden ticket) to hot girls in the audience and then he has em line up backstage like a meat-market to then get carded and then presuming they're at least 18, Maynard struts in and takes his pick? (How cheap would it feel to the women who don't get picked?) Jeeze, I know there's nothing illegal about it but he obviously just sees women as an object to fuck.

I suppose it reflects worse on the women themselves. Just willing to give themselves up for a cheap fuck on a bus because the guy sings on some songs they like.

Regardless of the situation, it doesn't seem like this Maynard guy has much of a moral compass.
When you're famous, they let you do it.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:28 PM   #68
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lol whatever

no sense could get through to you
Jeez man, first you're dick shaming me and now this?

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:46 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by pavementtune View Post
if it is not a criticism of women, at all, then how come this post still includes that he is abusing his position to get sex - which includes abuse - which includes that the woman who says yes is on the receiving end of an abuse of at least power. what does that make her. what, exactly, does that make her? and with her I mean every single woman who ever went backstage and had sex with say Maynard.
If some random guy went to a party and said he'd only talk to women who'd be willing to fuck him, he'd be laughed off.

But specifically because Maynard is famous he knows he can get away with it, if that's not abuse of power I don't know what is.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:56 PM   #70
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At 36 I think lining up teenage girls to fuck, even if they want to (of course they want to fuck a rock star, theyíre teenagers, they want to fuck because they have huge levels of sex hormones raging through their bodies and many lack the impulse control or cognitive skills, or emotional maturity to manage the effects of those hormones) is an abuse of power, I reckon.

36 year olds need to behave better than that, to avoid looking like sick assholes. The fact that he was messed up enough to treat adolescents basically like sex dolls because the law will allow it, makes me think this guy was definitely capable of forcing things to happen when girls changed their minds. Heís already objectified them; they werenít human beings to him.

But like, Led Zeppelin were no different , if you believe the tales about them. And then thereís the girl who lost her virginity at 14 to Gentle David Bowie.

So, whatever. Nothingís gonna change and half the girls who allow their bodies to be used by fully grown men never regret it so if itís not hurting anyone then there are probably bigger fish to fry.

But ...I guess the thing is..if they have become accustomed to something, and then one night a girl clearly isnít that into it, isnít kissing back, is silent and rigid, doesnít remove any of her own clothing or try to touch back or anything, are these guys more likely tojust go ahead and complete the transaction anyway, because it was the sole purpose of the body being there in the first place? I kinda think yes, probably.

And we probably should do something about that. And is that all linked back to embedded power imbalances between men and women in society at large, and subtle messages that are given to girls and women every day from multiple sources...? I mean...probably

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:01 PM   #71
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Aren't these "groupies" just using the singer/musician as a sex object as well? They aren't going backstage expecting to have a long-term relationship with the person, are they?

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:09 PM   #72
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Well put Vix. Also imagine, you're a 19 year old girl and you get a laminate that the famous singer wants to meet you, one could imagine that there's a naivety and maybe an insecurity or nervousness of not wanting to turn him down and decline.

People come to concerts to listen to some music and see a little entertainment. I've never understood this idea that women in the audience are desperate to fuck them. But you hear these stories from so many rock bands of roadies going out and cherry picking girls from the audience and most of the women oblige. I think a lot of it is probably pure pressure and just the utter surprise of the situation and not knowing how to react.

Of course there's also the women that go out, flashing their tits and desperately hoping to get picked to fuck one of the band members.

I was partying once with this chick who got picked to go backstage to bang one of the guys from Steel Panther and she did... I mean, really, Steel Panther does this shit and people oblige? I guess everyone wants to live that rock star fantasy, musicians and fans alike.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:57 PM   #73
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ur dad is a steel panther

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:58 PM   #74
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STEAL PANTHER

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:52 AM   #75
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I want to officially apologize to both pavementtune and disco king. I was rude and obnoxious and poorly expressed my opinion on the subject matter coming across very differently than what I really intended.
Feel free to dismiss my stupid replies or dunk on me all you want, just know that I never meant to disregard your opinions as legitimate as I have great respect to both of you.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:11 AM   #76
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I just meant to say women in that situation are more likely to say yes. Not that they can't consent or shouldn't want to have sex with their idol. They are free to do whatever they want of course.
What's wrong with them being "more likely to say yes?" Not having bad breath makes somebody "more likely to say yes" to sleeping with you. Is brushing your teeth to be more attractive to others abusing the minty power of toothpaste?

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I'm not saying that. I'm saying they are more likely to say yes when in that particular situation.
So, they are more likely to say yes when they are attracted to the person? I'm not seeing the problem here.

If that attraction is based on their perception of the person's status, maybe some could argue that that's shallow, but I'm not going to judge all people who don't restrict sex to couples in monogamous romantic relationships. If two adults of sound mind want to go at it because they met in a club bathroom, the only person being wronged in this situation is the person holding in their piss in the line waiting for the stall to open.

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They are willingly putting themselves in that position, sure. But he is purposefuly creating a situation where only women who want to have sex with him meet him and that I think is gross.
People on Tinder are purposefully creating a situation where only people who want to have sex with them will meet them. I don't understand why pursuing casual sex is wrong, or why filtering out the people who don't want casual sex is wrong (if anything, its less wrong than deceptively trying to lure people who don't want it).

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By accident? lol oops I fell on top of consensual sex!!!
As in "unplanned." Like, you weren't planning on having casual sex, but you went on a date and you both decided then and there that you wanted it. Why is waking up in the morning with "finding a hookup" already scheduled on the agenda any worse than it being less calculated?

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Seriously though, he's stacking the deck in his favor, by saying only people who want to fuck him get to meet him.
Can he do it? Sure he can.
Am I allowed to think that that is morally objectionable? sure I am.
Yes, you're "allowed" to find it morally objectionable. Thus far, the conversation hasn't been about what you're allowed or not allowed to think. You're even allowed to think that sex outside of a stable monogamous romantic relationship is morally objectionable, if you want. Nobody will call the thought police on you to take you away. We're only really discussing the justification for these opinions. But yes, you are "entitled to your opinion."

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I'm not trivializing anything, if anything i'm just giving context. In society women are conditioned to associate their own self worth with being sexy or desirable and that pleasuring people is the only real value they have.
I'm not sure how seriously this argument would be taken if we framed it as "in society, men are conditioned to associate their own self-worth with being able to attract and bed women, and that they lack any real value if they are not successful in this."

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A woman exercising her sexual freedom won't cry in the morning.
The post said nothing about these women crying in the morning.

I'm sure that there are maybe a couple other reasons a person may cry the morning after sex other than having had been taken advantage of, anyway.

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Originally Posted by LaBelle View Post
You are mirepresenting what I said to make me look bad.
Are you gonna disagree that society treats women as sexual meat currency and that many many women have trouble not viewing themselves in that way?
Are you gonna disagree that fame, money and admiration can be a huge influence for someone wanting to sleep with someone else?
When a woman wants to sleep with a man because she wants his fame and money, it is the man who is to blame.

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If some random guy went to a party and said he'd only talk to women who'd be willing to fuck him, he'd be laughed off.
He'd be laughed off because the women probably wouldn't want to fuck the random guy.

If they did want to fuck him, then I guess they'd do that.

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But specifically because Maynard is famous he knows he can get away with it, if that's not abuse of power I don't know what is.
Assuming the account in the post to be true, he can "get away" with doing it because they want to fuck him. Which is the relevant factor here. Using the fact that somebody wants to fuck you to "get away" with fucking instead of getting the mockery I guess he's supposed to deserve from these people who apparently want to fuck him isn't really "abusing" anything. This argument pretty much boils down to "it's not fair to get a lot of action that I think people should be withholding from you just because you have attributes that make them want to engage in action with you." It's pretty much just shaming a person for being successful in engaging in consensual sexual encounters. It's analogous in form to slut-shaming. Not as pernicious as slut-shaming, because there isn't a history of men being oppressed for having lots of sex, but the basic formulation of the claim is the same.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:16 AM   #77
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I want to officially apologize to both pavementtune and disco king. I was rude and obnoxious and poorly expressed my opinion on the subject matter coming across very differently than what I really intended.
Feel free to dismiss my stupid replies or dunk on me all you want, just know that I never meant to disregard your opinions as legitimate as I have great respect to both of you.
I didn't see this post before the last reply.

For what it's worth, I didn't feel that you were being rude to me at all. I felt it was a fairly amicable disagreement. I don't necessarily equate debate and disagreement with acrimony. And, like, I'm pretty sure I speak for most of the user-base here when I say that you're one of the more friendly posters.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 05:49 AM   #78
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Some of you are focusing way too much on individual women. No, obviously it's not impossible for a specific young woman to be sure of what she wants and to have consensual sex with a rock star. No one is claiming Maynard raped every single one of the fans he had sex with - if the woman doesn't feel like it was rape, then it wasn't. And yes, I agree that it's very possible for a woman not to feel that she was raped by him.

The issue here is that from Maynard's point of view, under the circumstances he so meticulously sets up, there is no real way for him to tell whether a fan is really consenting or not. And the worst part is that his system works like this by design to maximize the pool of women he can pick from. He might pick a woman who has been thinking "YES, I'M GOING TO HIT THAT SHIT" from the start; he might pick a girl who has been intentionally isolated from the friends she went to the concert with, and who is afraid of passing up an opportunity to interact with someone she admires. The way he isolates them from the people who would look after them is a HUGE red flag. The way he puts them in a place with other equally excited/unsure women is another - it serves to normalize the situation, to quell any thoughts of "OK, this is uncomfortable and really fucking weird" because everyone is apparently into it. It encourages them to disregard any sense of discomfort they might feel because they are now in competition for a "prize" that they don't want to lose.

Nothing I'm saying is about taking their agency away. I don't think women are children. But manipulation happens, and coercion is about much more than just barely veiled threats. I'm not a woman, and I'm not stupid, and I have been manipulated/coerced before. There is no shame in being taken advantage of. And that's exactly what Maynard sets out to do with those women.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 05:57 AM   #79
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But ...I guess the thing is..if they have become accustomed to something, and then one night a girl clearly isnít that into it, isnít kissing back, is silent and rigid, doesnít remove any of her own clothing or try to touch back or anything, are these guys more likely tojust go ahead and complete the transaction anyway, because it was the sole purpose of the body being there in the first place? I kinda think yes, probably.
This hit the nail on the head perfectly.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:22 PM   #80
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Some of you are focusing way too much on individual women. No, obviously it's not impossible for a specific young woman to be sure of what she wants and to have consensual sex with a rock star. No one is claiming Maynard raped every single one of the fans he had sex with - if the woman doesn't feel like it was rape, then it wasn't. And yes, I agree that it's very possible for a woman not to feel that she was raped by him.

The issue here is that from Maynard's point of view, under the circumstances he so meticulously sets up, there is no real way for him to tell whether a fan is really consenting or not. And the worst part is that his system works like this by design to maximize the pool of women he can pick from. He might pick a woman who has been thinking "YES, I'M GOING TO HIT THAT SHIT" from the start; he might pick a girl who has been intentionally isolated from the friends she went to the concert with, and who is afraid of passing up an opportunity to interact with someone she admires. The way he isolates them from the people who would look after them is a HUGE red flag. The way he puts them in a place with other equally excited/unsure women is another - it serves to normalize the situation, to quell any thoughts of "OK, this is uncomfortable and really fucking weird" because everyone is apparently into it. It encourages them to disregard any sense of discomfort they might feel because they are now in competition for a "prize" that they don't want to lose.

Nothing I'm saying is about taking their agency away. I don't think women are children. But manipulation happens, and coercion is about much more than just barely veiled threats. I'm not a woman, and I'm not stupid, and I have been manipulated/coerced before. There is no shame in being taken advantage of. And that's exactly what Maynard sets out to do with those women.
i do agree with this post. it feels creepy. like the kind of creepy stuff you associate with men. but i believe that there is not much to be done about it. unless he really did rape someone.
i have been coerced too in the pastÖ then i just tried to stay away from these situations that don't make me feel empowered. you live, you learn.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:50 PM   #81
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i do agree with this post. it feels creepy. like the kind of creepy stuff you associate with men. but i believe that there is not much to be done about it. unless he really did rape someone.
i have been coerced too in the pastÖ then i just tried to stay away from these situations that don't make me feel empowered. you live, you learn.
Maybe there's nothing that can be done OR perhaps we can adjust our attitudes and our culture about this sort of thing so it becomes a thing of the past. Even if Maynard didn't *rape* anyone, what he was doing makes him a pig.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 02:12 PM   #82
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Old 06-30-2018, 02:19 PM   #83
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The issue here is that from Maynard's point of view, under the circumstances he so meticulously sets up, there is no real way for him to tell whether a fan is really consenting or not.
I'd say the ways in which one could tell if the other party is consenting is if they actively participate in the act or give verbal assent.

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And the worst part is that his system works like this by design to maximize the pool of women he can pick from.
What's wrong with maximizing one's pool of partners?

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He might pick a woman who has been thinking "YES, I'M GOING TO HIT THAT SHIT" from the start; he might pick a girl who has been intentionally isolated from the friends she went to the concert with, and who is afraid of passing up an opportunity to interact with someone she admires. The way he isolates them from the people who would look after them is a HUGE red flag. The way he puts them in a place with other equally excited/unsure women is another - it serves to normalize the situation, to quell any thoughts of "OK, this is uncomfortable and really fucking weird" because everyone is apparently into it. It encourages them to disregard any sense of discomfort they might feel because they are now in competition for a "prize" that they don't want to lose.
Doesn't saying that they don't want to "lose the prize" of sleeping with this guy necessarily entail that they want to sleep with him? I just don't see how we can square the idea that these people are capable of directing their own actions with the idea that they are being tricked into thinking they want something that they don't just because they see that other people want it and their friends aren't back there to sign off on it.

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Nothing I'm saying is about taking their agency away. I don't think women are children. But manipulation happens, and coercion is about much more than just barely veiled threats. I'm not a woman, and I'm not stupid, and I have been manipulated/coerced before. There is no shame in being taken advantage of. And that's exactly what Maynard sets out to do with those women.
Coercion is about use of force or threat of reprisal if one doesn't do something. Yes, that reprisal doesn't necessarily have to be physical force. It could be blackmail, withholding necessities of life, etc. But I'm not sure that "the threat of losing out on sleeping with my idol" is a serious threat compelling one to sleep with their idol, because this consequence entails desire.

I think that the problem is that we're conflating motivations or reasons for why somebody may want to do something with restrictions on their ability to make a free choice. All action is guided by motivations, reasons, and incentives. If somebody makes an option appealing to me, it doesn't mean they tricked, manipulated, or coerced me into selecting that option.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 02:27 PM   #84
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Aren't these "groupies" just using the singer/musician as a sex object as well? They aren't going backstage expecting to have a long-term relationship with the person, are they?
Also, I just want to add that this is such a simplistic view of what sexual desire and consent consist of. Feeling used doesn't have a whole lot to do with expecting a long-term relationship - a meaningful, mutually consented sexual encounter doesn't depend on it. Just because the girls don't expect a long-term relationship, that doesn't mean that they can't be manipulated and have their vulnerabilities exploited.

Sometimes you're in an actual relationship, and years later, you look back and think, "That thing my partner or ex-partner did - it wasn't right, was it?" And often you can't and/or don't want to claim they raped you - after all, you even initiated sex sometimes - but in hindsight you can see how the person manipulated you. People can create an environment that doesn't encourage openness; they might be "hurt" and "rejected" when you don't feel the way they expected you to, and it's easier for you to just go along. Sometimes you don't even realize you're going along until later. Or they might approach you when you're lonely, when you are vulnerable, and you hope things will be different but then they are not.

All of this can happen in a long-term relationship, and even more so in a casual encounter. Sometimes part of you wants something and another doesn't. Sometimes you undoubtedly want some sort of sexual encounter, but not ANY sort. And it's really shitty to prey on people's complex desires, to make them MORE complex than they need to be so you can obfuscate the whole issue and get what you want out of it.

Consensual sex is a conversation. It is never about using someone as "a sex object", even when you're never seeing each other again.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 03:22 PM   #85
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I'd say the ways in which one could tell if the other party is consenting is if they actively participate in the act or give verbal assent.
It's not anywhere as clear cut as that. Maybe it has to be to actually prosecute someone, but the bar to call someone a creep needs to be much, much lower, imho.

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What's wrong with maximizing one's pool of partners?
Why are you taking that sentence in isolation? It's a problem if you are doing that by exploiting people's vulnerabilities with no regard for them.



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Doesn't saying that they don't want to "lose the prize" of sleeping with this guy necessarily entail that they want to sleep with him? I just don't see how we can square the idea that these people are capable of directing their own actions with the idea that they are being tricked into thinking they want something that they don't just because they see that other people want it and their friends aren't back there to sign off on it.
No, it doesn't. I can't believe I actually have to explain the concept of peer pressure here. I also can't believe I have to explain that ultimatums often present people with a false dichotomy that doesn't actually represent what they want ("you either take this NOW, on my terms, or leave it"). Sometimes that's just life, but Maynard was very deliberate about what he was doing, and the intended effect was to confuse and coerce. It was predatory, no way around it, and it's very weird to have to spell this out here.

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Coercion is about use of force or threat of reprisal if one doesn't do something. Yes, that reprisal doesn't necessarily have to be physical force. It could be blackmail, withholding necessities of life, etc. But I'm not sure that "the threat of losing out on sleeping with my idol" is a serious threat compelling one to sleep with their idol, because this consequence entails desire.

I think that the problem is that we're conflating motivations or reasons for why somebody may want to do something with restrictions on their ability to make a free choice. All action is guided by motivations, reasons, and incentives. If somebody makes an option appealing to me, it doesn't mean they tricked, manipulated, or coerced me into selecting that option.
There is such a thing as preying on confusion, high emotions, etc. It's really very bizarre to me that fuzzy of all people can see this, but you guys cannot.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 03:33 PM   #86
FlamingGlobes
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There is such a thing as preying on confusion, high emotions, etc. It's really very bizarre to me that fuzzy of all people can see this, but you guys cannot.
I don't mean this to be insulting, but by his own admission, DK is still relatively new to the human relationship experience. What you're posting about is nuance that takes experience to recognize.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:27 PM   #87
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Fuzzy doesn't really "get" or "not get" anything; he chooses stances based on how he thinks they enlargen his social capital or inflate his sense of self

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 05:02 PM   #88
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"if you really loved me you would do it"
"all the cool kids do it"

many exemples of coercion that are purely emotional and can make you do things that are not respectful to yourself and that you later regret.

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 05:03 PM   #89
myosis
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Fuzzy doesn't really "get" or "not get" anything; he chooses stances based on how he thinks they enlargen his social capital or inflate his sense of self
stop being an expert on fuzzy though

 
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Old 06-30-2018, 05:10 PM   #90
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yo what's up i'm a man

 
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