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Old 06-29-2018, 01:40 PM   #31
LaBelle
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You don't have to crucify the accused to believe the accuser. You do need to treat the accusation seriously and give the accuser the support they need.
Proving the accusation is the job of the legal professionals, but the person making the accusation needs belief and support. It's not saying the accusations are automatically true, but that you take the weight of their accusation seriously.

It's fucking terrifying trying to open up about sexual assault and knowing people will attack you and pile more emotional abuse on top of it.
Especially when the power dynamic is this lopsided. It's already insanely difficult for people to come forth with public accusations when they have a similar structural backing to defend themselves (ie famous person accusing another famous person).
So I can understand why they'd wish to remain anonymous and I can respect that.

Whether the allegations are real or not remains to be seen, and we'll see if more people come forth with similar accusations.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:44 PM   #32
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Mayonnaise+Mustard=Maynard

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 05:16 PM   #33
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I think some people interpret "believe victims" as "it is a moral imperative to suspend all skepticism and automatically assume that accusations of this particular crime are true," rather than simply challenging what has been the traditional default stance of thinking accusers are lying and making sure the claims are investigated as thoroughly as any other claim of a serious crime.

I think most people who frame it the former way are anti-feminists misinterpreting the aims of feminism, but I have encountered some fellow progressives who seriously hold that view. My sister once proudly stated how she'll never question any accusations. Even some outlets' media reactions to, say, the UVA scandal vehemently criticized any other outlet that exhibited skepticism, accusing them of being rape apologists.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 06:50 PM   #34
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It's becoming a Louis CK situation where it's clear that the guy is a creep. What level creep he really is remains to be seen/proven, I suppose.
yep

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:25 PM   #35
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perhaps "rape" is the feeling you come away with after paying for an hour and a half of Tool

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:42 PM   #36
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What a weird and creepy little man

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:58 PM   #37
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That's the thing: even if it's not "rape" it definitely aligns with previous stories and rumors. It's becoming a Louis CK situation where it's clear that the guy is a creep. What level creep he really is remains to be seen/proven, I suppose.
I'm unaware of the previous rumours. What are they?

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:07 PM   #38
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Makes you wonder about Scott Kelly, really.

I mean, it's not like Maynard suddenly had an original thought.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:11 PM   #39
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I'm unaware of the previous rumours. What are they?
i mean that link to the guy defenind maynard says he doesn't rape people he just invites a bunch of young women backstage (but he makes sure they are over 18!!!) and takes his pick of one or two and has sex with them. on every tour stop.

sex drugs rock n roll etc but it's creepy.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:31 PM   #40
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Iif these things transpire exactly as the post describes and it's not just downplaying any coercive or manipulative actions that are actually taking place, I don't see what's morally wrong about him having relations with consenting adults who fetishize his celebrity. Trashy, sure, but it doesn't seem predatory.

Being a "groupie" is stigmatized, but I'm not sure I can judge people for seeking consensual sex with people they perceive as status symbols, so long as they aren't being deceptive about it.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:37 PM   #41
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Because to use admiration as a bargaining chip to get easy sex is gross af?

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:40 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
I think some people interpret "believe victims" as "it is a moral imperative to suspend all skepticism and automatically assume that accusations of this particular crime are true," rather than simply challenging what has been the traditional default stance of thinking accusers are lying and making sure the claims are investigated as thoroughly as any other claim of a serious crime.

I think most people who frame it the former way are anti-feminists misinterpreting the aims of feminism, but I have encountered some fellow progressives who seriously hold that view. My sister once proudly stated how she'll never question any accusations. Even some outlets' media reactions to, say, the UVA scandal vehemently criticized any other outlet that exhibited skepticism, accusing them of being rape apologists.
word. you're not automatically supporting the accused by suspending judgement. i won't blindly support anything.

this is our "news". what's gonna happen to maynard? how many women will come forward? evidently many groupies willingly sought out to fuck the dude. does that matter?

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:41 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
Iif these things transpire exactly as the post describes and it's not just downplaying any coercive or manipulative actions that are actually taking place, I don't see what's morally wrong about him having relations with consenting adults who fetishize his celebrity. Trashy, sure, but it doesn't seem predatory.

Being a "groupie" is stigmatized, but I'm not sure I can judge people for seeking consensual sex with people they perceive as status symbols, so long as they aren't being deceptive about it.
Because having an entirely organized thought out system to facilitate that and make it clear to female fans that the only way they can get attention from someone they admire is if they offer sex is highly questionable?

Not to mention taking advantage of a culture that pretty much brainwashes women into thinking their only value lies in providing sexual pleasure to someone.

Sure it's getting better, but baby steps.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:44 PM   #44
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Because to use admiration as a bargaining chip to get easy sex is gross af?
Couldn't any possible incentive another person has for having sex with you be framed as a "bargaining chip," in that case? If his partners are interested in him because they are attracted to status or are attracted to people they admire, is it any less consensual than if they were attracted to him for his doughy middle-aged body or award-winning personality? I don't think these partners are too nave to make informed decisions, assuming they are all adults of functional minds.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:45 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
Couldn't any possible incentive another person has for having sex with you be framed as a "bargaining chip," in that case? If his partners are interested in him because they are attracted to status or are attracted to people they admire, is it any less consensual than if they were attracted to him for his doughy middle-aged body or award-winning personality? I don't think these partners are too nave to make informed decisions, assuming they are all adults of functional minds.
Drunk 19 year olds who came out of a concert and are on the adrenaline high of being in the presence of someone they admire. Sure, they make great consenting adults.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:49 PM   #46
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I slept with band members, (no AMA), and yes, I was not only a consenting adult, I was the adult who was pursuing it.

it also happens that you meet 20 year olds with smeared make-up staggering out of tour buses and hotel rooms looking like they'd like to call their mom now.

so to make a broad generalisaion that "groupies" must fall into either segment by definition is just completely silly.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:50 PM   #47
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girl (labelle), please stop pretending women that age are brainless and incapable of making decisions for better or worse

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:55 PM   #48
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Because having an entirely organized thought out system to facilitate that and make it clear to female fans that the only way they can get attention from someone they admire is if they offer sex is highly questionable?
Are any of these people entitled to his attention? If some persons standard for paying you any mind is that you have sex with them, assuming you aren't dependent on them or in a relationship of yrust or insecurity, you can easily tell the person, "no thanks, I don't think your attention is worth having sex with you." I don't think these people are powerless to refuse his terms.

Like, if somebody told me they would only have a relationship with me if I ate a bowl of fire, assuming this person isn't a parent or long-term partner or another with whom I should expect a relationship from, I think it would be up to me to say, "yeah, no, I will not eat a bowl of fire just so you will pay attention to me." If I eat that bowl of fire, I wasn't forced into doing it.

I'm also not sure about how having a system for attaining consensual sex is any less moral than having consensual sex by accident.

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Originally Posted by LaBelle View Post
Not to mention taking advantage of a culture that pretty much brainwashes women into thinking their only value lies in providing sexual pleasure to someone.

Sure it's getting better, but baby steps.
It seems to me to trivialize these adult women's agencies by making them out to be brainwashed into sleeping with this guy. Maybe they just want to sleep with him.

How do we distinguish between a woman exercising her sexual freedom and agency, and a woman being tricked into thinking she wants sexual contact because she's incapable of knowing her own interests?

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:01 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by LaBelle View Post
Drunk 19 year olds who came out of a concert and are on the adrenaline high of being in the presence of someone they admire. Sure, they make great consenting adults.
My post specified that my statements only pertain to the case that these events go down just as the post claimed, and that the post isn't omitting any important information, like being inebriated to the point of not being able to appreciate or understand the sexual acts (i.e. being unable to consent). I may have to read the post over, but I saw nothing about being drunk.

And the "high of being in the presence of someone they admire" doesn't seem to pass the threshold of being unable to consent, in my opinion. One could argue that disinhibiting cognitive effects of sexual arousal render one unable to consent, in that case. Being excited to have sex, for whatever reason, doesn't mean you can't form the intent and desire to have sex.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:03 PM   #50
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I don't think the comparison of concert-attendant/fan x musician and Louis CK works here.

Louis CK had power in the sense that these women were dependent on his good will for their career. if you, not as roadie and not as marketing intern but as concert goer, fuck the drummer you just met - you aren't. there is no professional work place power structure in any sense.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:09 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaBelle View Post
Drunk 19 year olds who came out of a concert and are on the adrenaline high of being in the presence of someone they admire. Sure, they make great consenting adults.
this is pretty much exactly what i was talking about.
this is, by definition, not judging a situation objectively, but projecting your opinions on it

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:24 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by pavementtune View Post
I slept with band members, (no AMA), and yes, I was not only a consenting adult, I was the adult who was pursuing it.

it also happens that you meet 20 year olds with smeared make-up staggering out of tour buses and hotel rooms looking like they'd like to call their mom now.

so to make a broad generalisaion that "groupies" must fall into either segment by definition is just completely silly.
I just meant to say women in that situation are more likely to say yes. Not that they can't consent or shouldn't want to have sex with their idol. They are free to do whatever they want of course.


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Originally Posted by yo soy el mejor View Post
girl (labelle), please stop pretending women that age are brainless and incapable of making decisions for better or worse
I'm not saying that. I'm saying they are more likely to say yes when in that particular situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
Are any of these people entitled to his attention?
No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
If some persons standard for paying you any mind is that you have sex with them, assuming you aren't dependent on them or in a relationship of trust or insecurity, you can easily tell the person, "no thanks, I don't think your attention is worth having sex with you." I don't think these people are powerless to refuse his terms.
They are willingly putting themselves in that position, sure. But he is purposefuly creating a situation where only women who want to have sex with him meet him and that I think is gross.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
Like, if somebody told me they would only have a relationship with me if I ate a bowl of fire, assuming this person isn't a parent or long-term partner or another with whom I should expect a relationship from, I think it would be up to me to say, "yeah, no, I will not eat a bowl of fire just so you will pay attention to me." If I eat that bowl of fire, I wasn't forced into doing it.
I never said he coerced anyone.

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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
I'm also not sure about how having a system for attaining consensual sex is any less moral than having consensual sex by accident.
By accident? lol oops I fell on top of consensual sex!!!

Seriously though, he's stacking the deck in his favor, by saying only people who want to fuck him get to meet him.
Can he do it? Sure he can.
Am I allowed to think that that is morally objectionable? sure I am.

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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
It seems to me to trivialize these adult women's agencies by making them out to be brainwashed into sleeping with this guy. Maybe they just want to sleep with him.
I'm not trivializing anything, if anything i'm just giving context. In society women are conditioned to associate their own self worth with being sexy or desirable and that pleasuring people is the only real value they have.

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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
How do we distinguish between a woman exercising her sexual freedom and agency, and a woman being tricked into thinking she wants sexual contact because she's incapable of knowing her own interests?
A woman exercising her sexual freedom won't cry in the morning.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:28 PM   #53
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WOOOOOOOO

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:29 PM   #54
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LEARN TO SWIM

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:31 PM   #55
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eh okay, you didn't actually say what you wanted to say then, namely that they can consent while making an informed decision, what you said is that
they make a lousy consenting adult, that bargaining chips are used on them, that they are brainwashed and get self validation out of that encounter.
and now that they are more likely to say yes, without taking into account that they just might have other reasons than being brainwashed, having no self worth or being intoxicated by fame to "be more likely to say yes".

and you broadly made that generalisation, which is where my problem with this labelling lies.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:35 PM   #56
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Labelling, noun; def: To LaBelle

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:42 PM   #57
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eh okay, you didn't actually say what you wanted to say then, namely that they can consent while making an informed decision, what you said is that
they make a lousy consenting adult, that bargaining chips are used on them, that they are brainwashed and get self validation out of that encounter.
and now that they are more likely to say yes, without taking into account that they just might have other reasons than being brainwashed, having no self worth or being intoxicated by fame to "be more likely to say yes".

and you broadly made that generalisation, which is where my problem with this labelling lies.
You are mirepresenting what I said to make me look bad.
Are you gonna disagree that society treats women as sexual meat currency and that many many women have trouble not viewing themselves in that way?
Are you gonna disagree that fame, money and admiration can be a huge influence for someone wanting to sleep with someone else?

Last edited by LaBelle : 06-29-2018 at 10:48 PM.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:47 PM   #58
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lol whatever

no sense could get through to you

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:52 PM   #59
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lol whatever

no sense could get through to you
Go look at dick drawings you self absorbed fuckface.

 
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:57 PM   #60
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LaMeanie

 
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