Netphoria Message Board


Go Back   Netphoria Message Board > Archives > Pumpkins Archive
Register Netphoria's Amazon.com Link Members List Mark Forums Read

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-17-2018, 10:09 AM   #1
paranoid
Minion of Satan
 
paranoid's Avatar
 
Location: up a tree
Posts: 7,510
Default The curse of the first album

Every album that’s come out post machina has essentially been a first and starting over point. Essentially a non stop series of comebacks, without the benefit of building upon the momentum of a project and moving into a strong sophomore effort.

Examples- zwan. Ok debut, but one that was testing waters, with the djali material showing promise for a strong future. Then it’s over.

Solo album promo dominated by return of SP.

Zeitgeist.. not what people hoped for, but by 2008 it seemed like the band was regaining footing and writing material the had promise for a strong second lp (as Rome burns, 99 floors, newer gossamer, March hare, etc). Then jimmy bails.

Enter Byrne era. Arguably teargarden was starting point with Oceania being the more developed piece, then boom after developing that band it’s over.

Monuments was an attempt at bc trying to carry the weight of the band on his own. A last gasp effort.

And now we have ogilala and shiny (strong in some respects but only as good as it can get based on it being a first shot without time behind it to develop the new group).. with the promise of new material from both solo acoustic and reformed original band. I’m hoping this truly works out and we can see corgan redevelop his skill as a writer through something that is consistent. It’s been proven to work great for him before.

 
paranoid is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 11:09 AM   #2
Gooch
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Gooch's Avatar
 
Location: Pancakes in my area
Posts: 1,545
Default

Insightful analysis. Well thought out reasoning.

 
Gooch is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 01:00 PM   #3
Oklahoma Sexual
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Oklahoma Sexual's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,612
Default

you could make a similar argument for gish/SD as the band almost broke up during recording. then MCIS sees jimmy fired, adore moves forward w/o him, machina was whatever it was. it's never been stable which speaks to the inherent dysfunction of the band

 
Oklahoma Sexual is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 01:01 PM   #4
redbreegull
Just Hook it to My Veins!
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by paranoid View Post
Every album that’s come out post machina has essentially been a first and starting over point. Essentially a non stop series of comebacks, without the benefit of building upon the momentum of a project and moving into a strong sophomore effort.

Examples- zwan. Ok debut, but one that was testing waters, with the djali material showing promise for a strong future. Then it’s over.

Solo album promo dominated by return of SP.

Zeitgeist.. not what people hoped for, but by 2008 it seemed like the band was regaining footing and writing material the had promise for a strong second lp (as Rome burns, 99 floors, newer gossamer, March hare, etc). Then jimmy bails.

Enter Byrne era. Arguably teargarden was starting point with Oceania being the more developed piece, then boom after developing that band it’s over.

Monuments was an attempt at bc trying to carry the weight of the band on his own. A last gasp effort.

And now we have ogilala and shiny (strong in some respects but only as good as it can get based on it being a first shot without time behind it to develop the new group).. with the promise of new material from both solo acoustic and reformed original band. I’m hoping this truly works out and we can see corgan redevelop his skill as a writer through something that is consistent. It’s been proven to work great for him before.
I hadn't thought of it quite like this, but that's pretty accurate. Each release since the end of the old band has been like hitting reset over and over and hoping for the desired result each time.

For Teargarden, I would say it was initially about breaking the format of LPs and doing this exciting 1 song a month thing. That collapsed and then they came back with Oceania, which although is considered part of TGBK, was another reset. It was kind of pitched as a return to form because it was more rock-oriented (the SD sound) and used standard release format.

 
redbreegull is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 01:05 PM   #5
redbreegull
Just Hook it to My Veins!
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,749
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Sexual View Post
you could make a similar argument for gish/SD as the band almost broke up during recording. then MCIS sees jimmy fired, adore moves forward w/o him, machina was whatever it was. it's never been stable which speaks to the inherent dysfunction of the band
I don't think this is exactly true. Sp2 era has seen a narrative rewrite by Billy Corgan every time something doesn't work. He collapses the whole thing and attempts to start over. With the original band, there is a clear progression in the music where each album builds off of what came before regardless of the personnel changes. The only place I think it is arguable he did the reset thing back then was on Adore, which he spoke about as an attempt to break down what they had done earlier.

Regardless of internal problems between Gish and SD, the music does not communicate those issues. We only know that through the individuals who were there. From MSOTS to TFE to Z to TGBK, etc, every album distinctly sounds like an attempt to build from the bottom up over and over

 
redbreegull is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 01:27 PM   #6
LoveIsSuicide42
Demi-God
 
Posts: 267
Default

This is spot on, and I think part of why Oceania has aged poorly- the album seemed like a step in the right direction at the time, but now just feels like a boring dead end.

I really hope Shiny is the start of a more concentrated approach.

 
LoveIsSuicide42 is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 01:42 PM   #7
ninsp
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Posts: 3,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveIsSuicide42 View Post
This is spot on, and I think part of why Oceania has aged poorly- the album seemed like a step in the right direction at the time, but now just feels like a boring dead end.

I really hope Shiny is the start of a more concentrated approach.
I would suggest the opposite (re: Oceania)

 
ninsp is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 01:47 PM   #8
brothahi4L
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Posts: 1,710
Default

Funny how some fans try to find excuses and arguments why belly hasnt released a good album in the last 18 years.

Positively billy doesnt like to copy his sound over and over like acdc metallica or pearl jam.
He tried sthg new but failed.
There s no album that you can really compare to another album.

Trying to hope for vol2 is bold cause 1) bc doesnt listen to his fanbase soundwise 2) corgan more or less says how its gonna be done no matter what j. Or j. Or j. Says.
3) he doesnt want to sound like sd or mcis anymore 4) he has a family and won't have 15 hour recording days.
4) he just isnt in his 20s anymore and approaches the world differently( lyrics).

I have hoped enuff.
I knew after solara that shiny is gonna be another 3 star record with no airplay and no good reviews and no overall good fan reaction.

 
brothahi4L is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 02:59 PM   #9
Ihaguitar
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Ihaguitar's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,359
Default

Curse of the shit album.

 
Ihaguitar is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 06:40 PM   #10
Oklahoma Sexual
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Oklahoma Sexual's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brothahi4L View Post
Funny how some fans try to find excuses and arguments why belly hasnt released a good album in the last 18 years.

1) bc doesnt listen to his fanbase soundwise 2) corgan more or less says how its gonna be done no matter what j. Or j. Or j. Says.
3) he doesnt want to sound like sd or mcis anymore 4) he has a family and won't have 15 hour recording days.
4) he just isnt in his 20s anymore and approaches the world differently( lyrics).
thanks for contributing your excuses and arguments

 
Oklahoma Sexual is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 07:12 PM   #11
T&T
Socialphobic
 
T&T's Avatar
 
Location: montreal
Posts: 11,656
Default

the band has always reinvented themselves.
its' just that in the beginning they didn't chose shitty things to reinvent into

 
T&T is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 08:04 PM   #12
johncg
Apocalyptic Poster
 
johncg's Avatar
 
Location: I teared Joe Rogan a new one
Posts: 1,427
Default

Gish was a first album

 
johncg is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 08:19 PM   #13
Corgan's Bluff
Minion of Satan
 
Corgan's Bluff's Avatar
 
Location: Travelling between Ukraine and Russia
Posts: 5,305
Thumbs up

Can't wait for Abba to cruise back from their Swedish Corsica to their first battle in 36 years...


 
Corgan's Bluff is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 08:27 PM   #14
bright_doom
Ownz
 
bright_doom's Avatar
 
Location: Machina Reissue HQ
Posts: 998
Default

It doesn't help that every time there is a new album, new lineup, new tour Billy will declare that "This is the strongest I've felt about the Pumpkins since 95'"

Every 2 years it's a revival and he's (allegedly) making the best music since Mellon Collie.

 
bright_doom is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 08:37 PM   #15
johncg
Apocalyptic Poster
 
johncg's Avatar
 
Location: I teared Joe Rogan a new one
Posts: 1,427
Default

And every album is the best album he’s written since the 90’s according to everyone around him

 
johncg is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 10:00 PM   #16
MonumentsRocks
Ownz
 
Posts: 633
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bright_doom View Post
It doesn't help that every time there is a new album, new lineup, new tour Billy will declare that "This is the strongest I've felt about the Pumpkins since 95'"

Every 2 years it's a revival and he's (allegedly) making the best music since Mellon Collie.
I have no reason to believe he's ever dishonest when he says that. He could add "my fans are the most pessimistic theyve ever been, and continue to be moreso with each album."

 
MonumentsRocks is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 10:09 PM   #17
fuzzyroes
Banned
 
Posts: 21,169
Default

The magic is gone folks. Time to move on.

Enjoy the old stuff and discover music from different artists. Expand your horizons.

 
fuzzyroes is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 11:19 PM   #18
paranoid
Minion of Satan
 
paranoid's Avatar
 
Location: up a tree
Posts: 7,510
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzyroes View Post
The magic is gone folks. Time to move on.

Enjoy the old stuff and discover music from different artists. Expand your horizons.
Some of us like to check in from time to time but you are more than welcome to leave.

Bye.

 
paranoid is offline
Old 11-17-2018, 11:59 PM   #19
Oklahoma Sexual
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Oklahoma Sexual's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by paranoid View Post
Some of us like to check in from time to time but you are more than welcome to leave.

Bye.
your obsession with fuzzy is disturbing to say the least

 
Oklahoma Sexual is offline
Old 11-18-2018, 12:07 AM   #20
myosis
Minion of Satan
 
myosis's Avatar
 
Location: the institute
Posts: 6,421
Default

yeah just leave. i'm pretty sick of hearing you repeat the same point over and over.
and i know my horizons are much more expanded than yours.

 
myosis is offline
Old 11-18-2018, 12:27 AM   #21
reprise85
BOTTLEG ILLEGAL
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: I'm faced with so many changes that I just might change my face
Posts: 32,800
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by johncg View Post
Gish was a first album
yeah but they had been writing and doing shows for years

 
reprise85 is offline
Old 11-18-2018, 12:43 AM   #22
ilikeplanets
Braindead
 
ilikeplanets's Avatar
 
Location: Ignore List
Posts: 17,229
Default

Gish also had cohesive follow ups, which was the OP's main point....

 
ilikeplanets is offline
Old 11-18-2018, 02:59 AM   #23
paranoid
Minion of Satan
 
paranoid's Avatar
 
Location: up a tree
Posts: 7,510
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
Gish also had cohesive follow ups, which was the OP's main point....
Right.

I would have liked to hear a follow up to Mary star. Same with zeitgeist with the lineup they had going (they were sounding great on that late 2008 tour, IMO). It’s been nearly two decade of first runs/new shots. I’m hoping the peace that’s present of this lineup continues and they grow what they’ve started, which imo is strong. So yeah, I think a follow up to this has potential to be something great.

And who knows, follow up to ogilala May be pretty good as it seems like he’s traveling down that path too.. which tbh I wish he stuck with his solo stuff after zwan. Those Chicago songs were stellar.

 
paranoid is offline
Old 11-18-2018, 03:10 AM   #24
paranoid
Minion of Satan
 
paranoid's Avatar
 
Location: up a tree
Posts: 7,510
Default

Also, about gish, great album but not the strongest of the 1991-2000 era. You could tell they were discovering their sound and getting their footing into the bigger picture. 2 years later, with pressure on, bam, Siamese dream and SP has a fully realized sound. Two years after that, after 6 years of non stop touring, SP can now write play and record whatever they want. Mellon collie is not an album made by a band in its first year. Some argue SD is better but you can’t deny SP we’re on top of their game/at their peak during MCIS.

Which obviously that’ll likely never happen again, but point being I’d like to see what corgan is capable of when he’s got something consistent to work with.

 
paranoid is offline
Old 11-18-2018, 03:56 AM   #25
FoolofaTook
Just Hook it to My Veins!
 
FoolofaTook's Avatar
 
Location: Donald Trump of Netphoria
Posts: 37,215
Default

WERE

 
FoolofaTook is offline
Old 11-18-2018, 10:29 PM   #26
Mals Marola
Socialphobic
 
Mals Marola's Avatar
 
Location: Your god damn living room
Posts: 10,000
Default

honestly, the only album of theirs i'd say wasn't really a "restart" was Mellon Collie

Siamese could kind of be argued both ways but really it sounds like more of a "back to the drawing board" kind of album than a natural follow-up to Gish

 
Mals Marola is offline
Old 11-19-2018, 05:37 AM   #27
eviltimeban
Apocalyptic Poster
 
eviltimeban's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,133
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mals Marola View Post
Siamese could kind of be argued both ways but really it sounds like more of a "back to the drawing board" kind of album than a natural follow-up to Gish
I don't hear SD that way, I see it very much a step up / build and continuation of a lot of themes explored on Gish, including things like Drown and Starla.

With SD, it's like they said, "right, now look what we can do". Gish and SD songwriting and singing are very similar. For me they are Part 1 and Part 2.

MCIS however was them saying "right, we've shown you what we can do. Now we're gonna just go completely OTT". In their case it worked.

 
eviltimeban is offline
Old 11-19-2018, 06:43 AM   #28
Razor Star
Pledge
 
Posts: 225
Default

This is a solid analysis.

And you *can* hear it start to happen with Teargarden into Oceania - musically Oceania develops a lot of the ideas BC was throwing around in the Teargarden tracks: vintage synths, really melodic bass lines etc. I would have been interested in where that band went next, because synths aside Monuments is a different band.

 
Razor Star is offline
Old 11-19-2018, 07:10 AM   #29
eviltimeban
Apocalyptic Poster
 
eviltimeban's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,133
Default

If TGBK had been a solo album, with the same musicians, it would've been fine. It actually would've been a lot freer for him as well, he could do what he wanted.

Song for a Son would've been a great way to launch a solo album - something unexpected, with a great guitar solo. It didn't need to fit into the Pumpkins ethos (which it doesn't).

Only thing is, no one would've cared really.

Oceania feels like a band, but it could've been a solo album. MtaE shouldn't have been made really. He should've just been solo since the end of the Zeitgeist era.

MSOTS - Zwan
TFE - Billy
Zeitgeist - Pumpkins
TG - Billy
Oceania - Billy & Friends
MtaE - in the can
Ogilala - Billy
Shiny - Pumpkins

 
eviltimeban is offline
 


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is On
Google


Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Now that over 3 years have passed since tKoL, how do you rank Radiohead's discography Banana Music Board Archive 250 11-03-2014 01:41 AM
Dead space question Toby General Chat Archive 12 06-22-2012 02:43 PM
Shows: 2011/11/15-16 - Brixton Academy; London, UK Andy / Pumpkins Archive 6 03-16-2012 03:43 PM
Quick question lucid_interval Pumpkins Archive 12 09-30-2011 12:25 AM
Milli Vanilli movie being developed at Universal... The Pashing Smumpkin General Chat Archive 5 02-15-2007 08:11 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:04 PM.




Smashing Pumpkins, Alternative Music
& General Discussion Message Board and Forums
www.netphoria.org - Copyright © 1998-2022