SP's "comeback" has given me more respect for Aerosmith

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by soniclovenoize

lol but I still love you Rider.

are you high? your arguments don't make any sense. at first you claim that asmith's songs were written by outsiders, rider contends they weren't, and then you're somehow agreeing with him?

[Rider]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

are you high? your arguments don't make any sense. at first you claim that asmith's songs were written by outsiders, rider contends they weren't, and then you're somehow agreeing with him?

I'm not sure he even understands his own posts.

[slunken]

no i get it - and i know rider knows a lot about the industry as well as soniclove and myself (to a limited extent) but in most cases a hook or melody or lyric snippet is created by tyler/perry and then that is turned over to a pro songwriter to make it a full song. this happened in the 50s/60s all the time. that's why on the 45s the credit is always (for the people who "wrote" their own tunes) ARTIST LAST NAME/SOMEBODY ELSE'S LAST NAME. it takes the professional to put the "professional" touches on it and make it super sellable (supposedly)

so i mean - yea - at this point in aero's careers it's totally a copout because they're just too lazy to do it themselves - it's like working in a factory. sure, all those thomas kinkaid paintings are really "his" but they were created in a warehouse by trained employees. steve is like a hundred years old and can't be bothered to have rehearsal 5 days a week to write new songs for the new album that needs to come out to pay the bills etc.

so is it a copout or not? that's the real debate here.

[Rider]

Originally Posted by slunken

no i get it - and i know rider knows a lot about the industry as well as soniclove and myself (to a limited extent) but in most cases a hook or melody or lyric snippet is created by tyler/perry and then that is turned over to a pro songwriter to make it a full song. this happened in the 50s/60s all the time. that's why on the 45s the credit is always (for the people who "wrote" their own tunes) ARTIST LAST NAME/SOMEBODY ELSE'S LAST NAME. it takes the professional to put the "professional" touches on it and make it super sellable (supposedly)

so i mean - yea - at this point in aero's careers it's totally a copout because they're just too lazy to do it themselves - it's like working in a factory. sure, all those thomas kinkaid paintings are really "his" but they were created in a warehouse by trained employees. steve is like a hundred years old and can't be bothered to have rehearsal 5 days a week to write new songs for the new album that needs to come out to pay the bills etc.

so is it a copout or not? that's the real debate here.

Actually the real cop out is that they haven't recorded an album in a decade. That surprised me. That song Pink came out 13 years ago. They are basically a greatest hits touring band now. They tour every year, but the last thing they recorded was a covers album in 2004.

That might be the trick just stop recording at a certain point. They were already at the point where they couldn't fit all there hits in a show so what's the point of making more hits if people will come see you perform 30 years worth of old stuff.

[morespsoon]

Originally Posted by Rider

Actually the real cop out is that they haven't recorded an album in a decade. That surprised me. That song Pink came out 13 years ago. They are basically a greatest hits touring band now. They tour every year, but the last thing they recorded was a covers album in 2004.

That might be the trick just stop recording at a certain point. They were already at the point where they couldn't fit all there hits in a show so what's the point of making more hits if people will come see you perform 30 years worth of old stuff.

"I know I get motivated when I think about a 20 album vinyl set of my demos from 1985-1994, even if only 500 fans wanted every one, because it means together we get to make something permanent that requires love, and a cover photo, and some liner notes, etc. In essence it is motivating to share more than just a digital file; to make art." - Billy Corgan

I like Billy Corgan's idea and attitude here.

[FoolofaTook]

do you like it enough to eat out his asshole?

[redbreegull]

Rider is correct that Tyler/Perry are credited on most songs, but the thing is, no one actually knows how much those outside writers were responsible for, and there really isn't an excuse for utilizing other songwriters on virtually EVERY tune you have written for 30 years... In my eyes that is pretty much the ultimate form of selling out.

If you listen to the stuff that is just credited to the band members and then listen to the stuff starting after they began bringing in other writers, there is an undeniably significant shift in their music. I guess they could have just decided to start writing far more accessible songs, but since nothing they did previously gave hint towards that polished pop sound, I would say it is more likely that other songwriters have played a major role in crafting their "new" sound.

[morespsoon]

"Dream On" has to be one of the most polished rock songs of all time. I think their music was always extremely polished and accessible as far as hard rock goes.

[Rider]

Originally Posted by morespsoon

"Dream On" has to be one of the most polished rock songs of all time. I think their music was always extremely polished and accessible as far as hard rock goes.

They walked the line well, they were a dirty raunchy blues band, but at the same time Tyler had plenty of writing partners back than also. You See Me Crying is just as pop as polished for the mid '70s as anything they have done the past 20 years:

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by morespsoon

"Dream On" has to be one of the most polished rock songs of all time. I think their music was always extremely polished and accessible as far as hard rock goes.

They were just as heavy as any other band in the early 70s. Dream On is a pop song, yes, but there isn't another song on their debut that sound anything like it.

[redbreegull]

BTW Nobody's Fault is from Rocks, not s/t, just demonstrating the hard rock crunch that defined their early sound

[morespsoon]

Originally Posted by Rider

They walked the line well, they were a dirty raunchy blues band

Originally Posted by redbreegull

They were just as heavy as any other band in the early 70s.

Interesting how opinions can vary this much.

[redbreegull]

if anything, listening to Aerosmith's newer music gives me more respect for Billy Corgan. The guy is a lunatic who makes awful music these days, but at least he isn't sucking record label dick and bringing in the guys who write songs for the backstreet boys

[redbreegull]

and also at least he didn't make an album with timbaland god damn

[Rider]

I think I would rather have good disposable pop crap, than the shinny happy unlistenable pop crap he is trying to write now.

[morespsoon]

Sometimes the ends justify the means...

Bring in outside writers, whatever's necessary to create something good. Why waste your time with garbage?

BTW, if you've watched any behind the scenes footage of Aerosmith recording it's obvious they were writing the songs at least going by the video footage.

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by Rider

I think I would rather have good disposable pop crap, than the shinny happy unlistenable pop crap he is trying to write now.

nah, can't agree with you there. i would rather he never writes another song i like than resort to this kind of soulless junk.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by RenewRevive

nah, can't agree with you there. i would rather he never writes another song i like than resort to this kind of soulless junk.

agreed. At the risk of sounding ridiculous, I am going to say that rider and morespoon seem to have forgotten what smashing pumpkins was ever about

[morespsoon]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

agreed. At the risk of sounding ridiculous, I am going to say that rider and morespoon seem to have forgotten what smashing pumpkins was ever about

Go back and watch Vieuphoria, what did the band say when they were asked about Siamese Dream?

These quotes are off the top of my head, don't go nuts on me:

"It sounds like a big sellout album" - Darcy

"It's very slick" - James Iha

"Butch Vig is a star maker, that's why we got him" - Jimmy Chamberlain

I thought the symbolic meaning of the pigs on the cover of Vieuphoria was obvious, the band was in league with the "pigs" of the industry and when you watch the videos on Vieuphoria it's clear they were trying to go big and "sell out" and become stars, they said it themselves...

I think you're in to revisionist history.

[aeroplume]

LOL at the Aerosmith conversation.

I write and record my own music, and it makes me happy. I know I'm no B0lly but I dont care. If your band has to HIRE someone to help YOU write a GOOD song, then you have NO BALLS WHATSOEVER. You SUCK and so does your BAND for even allowing it to happen.

Aerosmith suck. They started sucking when they got songwriters. Theyre a bunch of losers because of it. Great musicians, sure, but they have no taste whatsoever.

[Rider]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

agreed. At the risk of sounding ridiculous, I am going to say that rider and morespoon seem to have forgotten what smashing pumpkins was ever about

Really what were the pumpkins about?

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by morespsoon

I thought the symbolic meaning of the pigs on the cover of Vieuphoria was obvious, the band was in league with the "pigs" of the industry and when you watch the videos on Vieuphoria it's clear they were trying to go big and "sell out" and become stars, they said it themselves...

I think you're in to revisionist history.

Billy has always been straightforward in that his goal for the Pumpkins was to a be a big, largely recognized and influential band. No one is denying this.Yes, Siamese Dream is very hi-fi, but it is still an alternative album written by a guy who achieved what he did through his own talent. The Pumpkins never were and never have been a product of the record industry. Those songs were written by Billy Corgan and to a lesser extent the other members of the band, and never, ever, ever outside songwriters. The strength, power, accessibility, etc. of Siamese Dream is all the result of Billy fucking Corgan being an amazing musician, writing amazing songs, and being backed up by a great band (or drummer at least). No record company dickshit wrote those songs for him. It's totally different.

Originally Posted by aeroplume

LOL at the Aerosmith conversation.

I write and record my own music, and it makes me happy. I know I'm no B0lly but I dont care. If your band has to HIRE someone to help YOU write a GOOD song, then you have NO BALLS WHATSOEVER. You SUCK and so does your BAND for even allowing it to happen.

Aerosmith suck. They started sucking when they got songwriters. Theyre a bunch of losers because of it. Great musicians, sure, but they have no taste whatsoever.

This. Aerosmith do not take their music seriously and have made themselves into a bunch of clowns to keep raking in $$$.

Originally Posted by Rider

Really what were the pumpkins about?

The Pumpkins were, and still are about Billy Corgan doing his own thing. He has had major failures as well as successes, but at least it has all been on his terms. As much as I dislike his new music and his woo woo mystic nonsense, at least this guy fucking has the integrity to just do what he wants and say fuck the haters. I've been pretty critical of his actions the past few years, but I can still respect him in the capacity that he doesn't take anyone's bullshit, he doesn't cater to expectation, and he is not interested in appealing to the lowest common denominator to make bucks. He's clearly still obsessed with making the Pumpkins an influential and popular band again, but he has never compromised the fact that the band belongs to him. If the Pumpkins are ever to become relevant again (which they won't,) it will happen based on Billy Corgan's own strange path and the music that springs from that, whatever direction it goes. I would rather him make shitty teargarden songs from now unto eternity than for him to bring in outside writers to get his music on the radio.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by morespsoon

Sometimes the ends justify the means...

Bring in outside writers, whatever's necessary to create something good. Why waste your time with garbage?

BTW, if you've watched any behind the scenes footage of Aerosmith recording it's obvious they were writing the songs at least going by the video footage.

are you retarded? who the fuck want's to watch shit like that?

isn't there a forum somewhere else for people who like Dude Looks Like a Lady?

[Rider]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

are you retarded? who the fuck want's to watch shit like that?

isn't there a forum somewhere else for people who like Dude Looks Like a Lady?

There is nothing wrong with the album Pump, it's just hipster trendy to pretend everything Aerosmith did post reunion is horrible. Even the sellout songs are good for the most part, not my cup tea, but there is nothing wrong with them.

[redbreegull]

I guess if you don't give shit how sincere the music is and the only reason you listen is for surface level enjoyment, then yeah. A song written by a paid record company stooge is not art, it's just a product.

[Rider]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

I guess if you don't give shit how sincere the music is and the only reason you listen is for surface level enjoyment, then yeah. A song written by a paid record company stooge is not art, it's just a product.

If a sound sounds good why would I give a shit how it was produced. That's just idiotic.

And as I said before Pet Sounds was written with the help of an advertising company stooge, don't see anyone bashing that.

[hcueva]

These are the options -->

a) Two band members team up with outside talent to come up with fresh songs.
b) The lead singer continuously hires female bass players, Asian dudes and a 13 year old drummer to have a cool image -also gets Paris Hilton to do a photo shoot.

Which one's a bigger sell out? There's nothing wrong with bands teaming up with other great musicians to write songs. Air did a full album with that idea in mind (10,000 Hz Legend) and no one calls them sell outs.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Rider

If a sound sounds good why would I give a shit how it was produced.

possibly the lamest the thing I have ever read on this board. With that attitude how did you ever enjoy listening to a band like the Pumpkins in the first place


also do not give two shits about the beach boys

[slunken]

i dunno about some of you guys but when dude looks like a lady or love in an elevator comes on the radio, i'm turning it UP every time.

[redbreegull]

I'm not arguing that some of Aersomith's later songs aren't "good," or enjoyable, but it loses its meaning when the artist isn't responsible for the art anymore. As a band, Smashing Pumpkins is appealing to a certain type of individual because of the meaning behind the songs. Yes, it is possible to hear Bullet with Butterfly Wings and enjoy rocking out to it, but if this is the extent to which you derive pleasure or fulfillment from a song, you are basically the kind of fan who helped pack arenas for SP in '96 and the Backstreet Boys in '99. Music is more than the literal sounds entering our ears. There are a whole load of abstract ideas, philosophical concepts, and personal expressions behind a good song. SP's music is about being an individual, an outsider, yet still finding your way to success on your own terms. I would say this has been the most prominent theme in Corgan's music throughout his career. For any artist to give up his or her own voice in favor of making music with ensured accessibility is disgraceful, and it would be especially egregious for the Pumpkins in light of their message.