Had Oceania been released after MCIS

[Forgotten Child]

Originally Posted by Fonzie

The fuck, dude. If Jim was still in the band it might be ok, but it’s rooted to its time, whereas Siamese Dream has a classic sound that could exist in any time zone.

Really? SD sounds very 90's to me.

[byoung88]

I don't really get the praise for either of the albums after Zeitgeist.. The production on all three of those albums is a bit crappy..

[eviltimeban]

Machina would've made more sense after MCIS, especially after the Batman single, which combined rawk with the electronics, but still sounded like the Pumpkins. So stuff like Everlasting Gaze and Stand Inside Your Love, would've been a continuation of some of the MCIS themes, and could've done well. Only problem is, most of Machina is so god-awfully BORING.

Oceania is an album I like very much and revisit from time to time. The vocals are just about bearable with the Zwan-onwards vibrato and full singing voice, though saying that the vocals on MCIS are probably the poorest sounding vocals on any Pumpkins album (too compressed, no effects, tinny to the point of pain in some places - while the performances are good, the sound is not).

If you stripped out the Pale Horse / Pinwheels type songs, and included a few things like GLOW and Owata, Oceania could've been a strong late 90s alternative rock album. However, the Pumpkins needed to go somewhere else, and Billy knew that all along. James had made "Let it come down", bands like Air and Mercury Rev were releasing seminal albums, things were chilling out a bit after the rage of grunge and alt rock.

And I'm glad he did do that, as Adore is a great record.

[MyKeyZ]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

and i will never understand the people that say oceania sounds like siamese dream

And I will never understand the people that say the electronics on Adore haven't aged well in a world where electronic elements in songs are found everywhere and in every genre of music now. It's the electronics that I love about Adore and honestly connect it to the time now. Sure, I also love "To Sheila," "From Martha," "Behold! The Night Mare," and "Blank Page," but it's songs like "Once Upon A Time," "Tale Of Dusty And Pistol Pete," and "Annie-Dog" that I could probably live without. I much rather "Waiting," "Blissed And Gone," or "Eye" in place of them. But even with the songs I feel ehh about, I still love the album as a whole because it brings so many different elements and styles together.

Where I think Billy dropped the ball is the tour in support of Adore. There may have been moments of greatness, but it was filled with a lot of meh and stuff that felt off. For an album that I truly love, many of its songs just didn't translate well with the band setup they had decided to use for this tour. Mike Garson? Hell yeah! But three percussionists? I know Jimmy is amazing and all, but three percussionists was overkill and many times they sounded like a mess. I will give them Blank Page live, there were some amazing performances of that song during this tour era. But there's many elements, especially electronic/loops that give the songs their momentum on the album when taken away makes the song feel like it's staggering along. I just can't get into the band version of "Eye" or "Ava Adore" or "Crestfallen." I think Matt Walker would have helped bridged the live drummer/loop/electronic elements together better for a stronger live performance. I still have yet to hear a live version of "Ava Adore" that has the energy of the album version. Jimmy is definitely better at it than any of the other drummers that tried, but it's still missing something.

[T&T]

Originally Posted by MyKeyZ

And I will never understand the people that say the electronics on Adore haven't aged well in a world where electronic elements in songs are found everywhere and in every genre of music now.

Billy is a bad synthesist. and putting some of that work up front was as BAD production decision. same could be said about the piano work.
It's the "the electronic sound design" that's unrehearsed and bland. Of course electronics have become present everywhere, and it wasn't the first time billy use them, but on adore that design just doesn't hold up in hindsight.

[Mals Marola]

i strongly disagree that Adore sounds dated - Billy might not be the greatest electronic producer, but a lot of you are acting like the album relied on those electronics more than it did. On a song like "Eye," yeah it's a little jarring the first time you hear it now. But stuff like Ava Adore and Tear just sound sweet with the mix of organic & electronic elements, and frankly i think it's a perfectly-produced album

it's not like putting on Ace of Base or something, Adore still had the airiness & charm of the Pumpkins even with the heightened electronic element & downtempo nature of the thing as a whole

[Mals Marola]

Originally Posted by MyKeyZ

Where I think Billy dropped the ball is the tour in support of Adore. There may have been moments of greatness, but it was filled with a lot of meh and stuff that felt off. For an album that I truly love, many of its songs just didn't translate well with the band setup they had decided to use for this tour. Mike Garson? Hell yeah! But three percussionists? I know Jimmy is amazing and all, but three percussionists was overkill and many times they sounded like a mess. I will give them Blank Page live, there were some amazing performances of that song during this tour era. But there's many elements, especially electronic/loops that give the songs their momentum on the album when taken away makes the song feel like it's staggering along. I just can't get into the band version of "Eye" or "Ava Adore" or "Crestfallen." I think Matt Walker would have helped bridged the live drummer/loop/electronic elements together better for a stronger live performance. I still have yet to hear a live version of "Ava Adore" that has the energy of the album version. Jimmy is definitely better at it than any of the other drummers that tried, but it's still missing something.

they coulda probably incorporated more of the electronic nature of that record/era a bit more, but man that live disc from the Adore box is so choice

[Shadaloo]

Didn't he say something along the lines that he wanted to make a record that "sounded like something you would find in a dusty box in an attic somewhere?"

[Funbags]

I love Adore. Although Appels + Oranjes could have been easily replaced by a superior song like Waiting.

I also think Garson enhanced the arty European vibe on the tour, but the percussionists really bugged me! You can only have so much improvisation on stage at once before it turns into some kind of weird jazz. They should have written out parts with Kenny and performed as a big drum unit.

Coincidentally, that's the name of Jimmy's next solo album: Big Drum Unit.

[run2pee]

Originally Posted by MyKeyZ

After Machina, Billy went all spiritual and zen and I just have not connected with him in this phase. All sunshines and rainbows. It feels fake... forced. I don't feel the raw passion and an exposed human emotion he had on his earlier work. There's just a depth there that is missing. I just don't connect with what he's trying to say or do now.

Part of it, to me, is that bill stopped being hungry
He sounds like a very full, very rich, very insulated dude, very comfy
That is a very boring sound to which i do not wish to relate

[Eulogy]

Monuments is also much MUCH better than Oceania. He stopped trying so hard and made a brisk, fun little rock record which is prob his ceiling now.

[reprise85]

lol monuments is fucking awful

[ilikeplanets]

Monuments and Oceania are both pretty frustrating, especially lyrically

[Mals Marola]

Monuments had 2 or 3 bad-to-very-bad songs but the 5 or 6 others i like, 2 or 3 of them amongst the best SP2 material imo

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by reprise85

lol monuments is fucking awful

I don't think so. I mean, it's not great, but it has higher highs than anything since Zeitgeist. Oceania may have less offensive moments, but it's bland as hell.

[reprise85]

yes it is bland but monuments is offensively terrible

[fuzzyroes]

The problem with Oceania is that there just isn't a lot of band chemistry on display. DK's analogy about the cover band is spot on. It's basically Billy Corgan trying to dust off the techniques that made Siamese Dream great, but without the talent to pull it off...

The songs themselves just don't have a lot going on either. One of the better tracks on the album is the title track and even that is kind of bland and uninteresting considering that it's supposed to be a prolific statement. It was the first time that I've found a Billy Corgan album overtly boring.... And sadly I feel the same about Ogilala.. So it's not a good sign. It's better to be divisive or fall flat on your face trying something new than being boring .

[houseofglass11]

MtaE is good. I don't understand the level of hate it gets. He actually sang like Billy Corgan on that album. Dorian sounded like something straight off of Adore. And I don't care if you don't like the lyrics, "One and All" was a great guitar track.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by reprise85

yes it is bland but monuments is offensively terrible

I don't see how people can think that songs like One and All, Delorean, Tiberius and Anaise aren't better than the material on Oceania.... At the least I don't think people can argue that those songs are any worse.

Monuments is short, so I can understand why people can feel sorta "cheated" if they enjoy the album listening experience, but it's musically and melodically a lot better than Oceania. It was a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. But that's not exactly saying a lot.

[fuzzyroes]

What sucks is that Byrne really had some material on Oceania where he could show what he was made of... And he just didn't have the talent necessary to rise up for the opportunity. One could perfectly argue that he didn't have a lot to work with in Teargarden, but he had every chance to shine on Oash and it just didn't sound very tight or cohesive... It was a showcase that really made clear the importance of JC to the sound.

People have argued over the years that "Byrne played the way he did on Oash cause that's how Billy wanted him to sound so it's not his fault"... But I think it's just a clear example of him not having what it takes. It's no surprise to me that he was fired after the album failed to meet expectations.

[fuzzyroes]

Hell, Tommy Lee sounded a helluva lot tighter on Monuments....

The game-plan and roll-out to reboot Smashing Pumpkins by collaborating with Byrne still baffles me to no end.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by houseofglass11

MtaE is good. I don't understand the level of hate it gets. He actually sang like Billy Corgan on that album. Dorian sounded like something straight off of Adore. And I don't care if you don't like the lyrics, "One and All" was a great guitar track.

Yeah buddy, exactly.

Sure, the lyrics are bland, but some of the best Smashing Pumpkins songs have terrible lyrics, so I don't see why it's a deal breaker.

[redbreegull]

Monuments is absolute garbage. By far the worst LP he's ever put out, though worst album still goes to TGBK

the bad songs on Oceania are as bad as Monuments but Oceania has a handful of good tracks that greatly elevate the overall quality of the album. Monuments has nothing

[fuzzyroes]

No way...

Some people have mentioned that they'd be interested in hearing a re-issue with Jimmy writing and recording his own parts. That would be cool and would fix the loose sounding musicianship (there's literally no punch to the songs that by all means should sound punchy), but the songs themselves just aren't very good. It's bland music... Bad singing, boring melodies. I don't understand what there is to like there.

Monuments is a crisp, catchy modern rock album... Nothing to write home about, but at least there's stuff there to like.

Differing opinions aside, what do you consider to be the handful of good tracks on Oceania?

[Shadaloo]

Monuments is by and large a shining example of a pile of soulless fucking dreck. It is intentionally easily digestible chunks of pop friendliness pitched at the lowest fucking denominator.

The Adore era may have electronic music but it was electronic music with something to say, that communicated longing, loss and everything Bill was going through at that time. It had passion. The two have nothing in common past the surface electronic element.

Monuments is a lazy piece of shit slapped together in a pathetic attempt to get quick pop success. It is every single cynical viewpoint that can be aimed at Billy Corgan writ large. Teargarden was a more honest attempt for all it sounded like shit - Monuments is Bill willfully dragging the SP name through the mud and whoring it out, and he knows it, which is why we're where we are now.

[MarquisInSpades]

DOES THIS SOUND LIKE SOULLESS FUCKING DRECK? HUH!?!?!?!!!!

[fuzzyroes]

The fuck? I had no idea that they actually made a video for that song

and no, I will not be watching it!

[ilikeplanets]

Oceania may have a few goid tracks but the first track of the album is so god awful (lol) that it's hard to recover from it. And Glissandra's repetitive riff drives me nuts.

[MarquisInSpades]

No self-respecting individual should.

[redbreegull]

Panopticon, Celestials, Violet Rays, Oceania before the third part comes in, Glissandra and Inkless are all pretty decent to good. They all suffer from bad singing and bad lyrics but that goes without saying. Everything on Monuments is at One Diamond One Heart level shitty