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Old 01-25-2002, 02:21 PM   #31
tweedyburd
 
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by Unless:
do you think someone who has no ********** knowledge of the subject would get an innaccurate impression of the somalian people?
I would say that anyone with a brain would know that they were getting an extreme, war-time version of a group of people who were reacting the way they saw fit on their own turf. All these 'it doesn't represent them well' arguments are irrelevant because it's not what the movie is about. No one is going into that movie wanting to know the plight or history of the Somalian extremists--if they want to know that they can read a book. It's not the movie's job to educate people on the background of those people. Furthermore, it would be historically inaccurate to characterize the opposition because the solidiers themselves didn't get close enough to them to understand them. It was about a mission from their pespective, and they became their enemy. Simple as that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Unless:
u talkin about me or the US? strategy all strategy

No, I was just referring to the way in which you tried to re-state what you initially said. Of course it's not a peacful way of conducting diplomacy, but the point was that they are our allies now, not 'the next target of the war on terrorism' as you first said.



 
Old 01-25-2002, 02:29 PM   #32
Unless
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by tweedyburd:
No, I was just referring to the way in which you tried to re-state what you initially said. Of course it's not a peacful way of conducting diplomacy, but the point was that they are our allies now, not 'the next target of the war on terrorism' as you first said.

in order for this to make sense you would first have to understand what I was saying. Which was basically the reasons you gave that I replied to, as far as allies go, do not change it from being a target. So there was no backing up. MY point was that saying it is a target to me does not necessarily mean that we are going to target them with machine guns but with strategy (strategy is necessary I'm not putting that down). the U.S. government shut down the Somali-owned Al-Barakat money transfer company, The U.S. also shut down Somalia Internet Company. Pakistan is our ally to, but it isn't because they decided as a country that they wanna be the good guys too. pay attention. but please don't tell me how you don't agree. I know you don't, i didn't want to get into this kind of discussion.

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg

[This message has been edited by Unless (edited 01-25-2002).]

 
Old 01-25-2002, 02:37 PM   #33
Unless
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by tweedyburd:
I would say that anyone with a brain would know that they were getting an extreme, war-time version of
a group of people who were reacting the way they saw fit on their own turf. All these 'it doesn't represent
them well' arguments are irrelevant because it's not what the movie is about. No one is going into that
movie wanting to know the plight or history of the Somalian extremists--if they want to know that they
can read a book. It's not the movie's job to educate people on the ********** of those people.
Furthermore, it would be historically inaccurate to characterize the opposition because the solidiers
themselves didn't get close enough to them to understand them. It was about a mission from their
pespective, and they became their enemy. Simple as that.

Simple as that when portraying a basketball game. I disagree, I see it as very dangerous to present to an ignorant country based on the idea of "by the people for the people" a film that presents something as inaccurately good vs. evil. Now if it does not do that than thats fine. I never said it did if you read through this. They don't have to show the history of somalian extremists, extremists, what a funny "irrelevant" word to use. They only have to make their lives seem of the same worth, thats all I ask, otherwise its almost a fairy tale rather than even something based on a book about a subject so serious. Sometimes movies of this genre don't even seem to portray the opposing side as real people.


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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg

 
Old 01-25-2002, 02:39 PM   #34
Unless
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by tweedyburd:
...they are our allies...
lets not forget who else has been our allies in the past, and who are our enemies now...


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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg

 
Old 01-25-2002, 03:04 PM   #35
MisterSquishyHalo
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by PkPhuoko:
my only grip is that it was historicly inaccurate. In reality they were rescued by air force paratroopers. Decent flick but not great

Actually.

They were rescued by a combined force of 10th Mtn, and Pakistani and Malaysian Armor.

 
Old 01-25-2002, 03:07 PM   #36
MisterSquishyHalo
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Unless:
I have not seen this movie so can't judge on the propaganda label, but the rest is good to take into consideration if you are going to have opinions that involve the worth of someone's life. I'll post the rest up somewhere else for people who actually read things that are longer than a paragraph.


This movie is a blatantly racist attempt to create support among the U.S. public for a new war against Somalia. According to the Bush Administration, Somalia is at the top of the Pentagon's list of countries to be the next major target of the so-called "war against terrorism."


You my sir are an idiot. How is it racist? Because they killed africans? Thats where the war was set. And the Movie was in pre production before the whole Osama Bin Laden thing shit hit the fan. So dont think it was just made because of the war effort. It was just good timing.


 
Old 01-25-2002, 03:09 PM   #37
MisterSquishyHalo
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by THE MACHINA666:
Agreed. Altough if you compare it to crap like Pearl Harbor, it's a sure hit classic.

But all in all, there's nothing much there. Great visuals, as expected from Scott (and Brukheimer (sp? whatever his fucking name)), but empty on many levels.


P.S.
Are you working on a new film, buddy?


[This message has been edited by THE MACHINA666 (edited 01-25-2002).]

Its a war movie what do you want? Romance? Drama? None of those things were in there. It was just a firefight for 18 hours.


 
Old 01-25-2002, 03:26 PM   #38
Unless
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by MisterSquishyHalo:
You my sir are an idiot. How is it racist? Because they killed africans? Thats where the war was set. And the Movie was in pre production before the whole Osama Bin Laden thing shit hit the fan. So dont think it was just made because of the war effort. It was just good timing.
no im your DEAR idiot. I don't know, i said I have not seen it to have an opinion on whether or not it is racist. This is some more of the article:

Since September 11, Bush administration officials have held meetings with Hollywood representatives regarding the content of the movies and other material they produce. In an October 17, 2001, meeting, Hollywood heads "committed themselves to new initiatives in support of the war on terrorism."

"Black Hawk Down" is just one of those movies, made hand-in-hand with the Pentagon. Weeks before the release of "Black Hawk Down," the Motion Picture Association of America held a private screening for senior White House advisers, and allowed them to make changes. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Oliver North, among others, attended the movie's Washington, D.C. premiere.

I read articles like this all the time and much of the reasoning such as these last two paragraphs which i didn't ******* in the first post cannot be proved or disproved. You can just choose to believe or not to believe them. I find it HIGHLY likely that this type of thing occurs often and choose to incorporate it in my reasoning. I don't believe everything I read or else I would have given an opinion of whether or not I think its racist, But I won't do that till I see it. No my undermining friend just because "it kills Africans" wouldn't make it racist and nor does this article imply thats what does it, but critisizes how somalia was portrayed, and being intelligent enough to educate yourself on the situation and to determine that I'm an idiot, I think you should be able to deduce that and reply justly without using dirty lawyer tricks.

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg

 
Old 01-25-2002, 03:37 PM   #39
Jaggie
 
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Post

I only have one more thing to say about this. The movie was told almost exclusively from the point of view of the American soldiers. But it was based on a book that was written from interviews from equal amounts of Somalis (both innocents and militia) and Americans. Thus, although it didn't have to be, the book does represent both sides of the issue.

 
Old 01-25-2002, 03:42 PM   #40
Unless
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Jaggie:
I only have one more thing to say about this. The movie was told almost exclusively from the point of view of the American soldiers. But it was based on a book that was written from interviews from equal amounts of Somalis (both innocents and militia) and Americans. Thus, although it didn't have to be, the book does represent both sides of the issue.
thanks, honestly. I don't hear much about the book ever, only the movie. It is like that with alot of things and I'll be alot more likely to read it now. I am trying to read more books that are more mind-opening to current events, I'm way behind. I get into books quicker that have nothing to do with the way things really are but it gets kind of depressing when u come back and realize that life is not really like that.

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg

 
Old 01-25-2002, 05:24 PM   #41
MisterSquishyHalo
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Unless:
no im your DEAR idiot. I don't know, i said I have not seen it to have an opinion on whether or not it is racist. This is some more of the article:

Since September 11, Bush administration officials have held meetings with Hollywood representatives regarding the content of the movies and other material they produce. In an October 17, 2001, meeting, Hollywood heads "committed themselves to new initiatives in support of the war on terrorism."

"Black Hawk Down" is just one of those movies, made hand-in-hand with the Pentagon. Weeks before the release of "Black Hawk Down," the Motion Picture Association of America held a private screening for senior White House advisers, and allowed them to make changes. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Oliver North, among others, attended the movie's Washington, D.C. premiere.

I read articles like this all the time and much of the reasoning such as these last two paragraphs which i didn't ******* in the first post cannot be proved or disproved. You can just choose to believe or not to believe them. I find it HIGHLY likely that this type of thing occurs often and choose to incorporate it in my reasoning. I don't believe everything I read or else I would have given an opinion of whether or not I think its racist, But I won't do that till I see it. No my undermining friend just because "it kills Africans" wouldn't make it racist and nor does this article imply thats what does it, but critisizes how somalia was portrayed, and being intelligent enough to educate yourself on the situation and to determine that I'm an idiot, I think you should be able to deduce that and reply justly without using dirty lawyer tricks.

Look I understand you havent seen the movie, but basically the Book=the Movie, LIke Jaggie says. ALthough Bowden interviewed alot of somali's on their accounts of the battle. This movie was made for America. If you tried to fit everything in, this movie would have run well over three hours. Some things had to be cut, the Somali stuff was cut. Not cause it was being racist, but well, because this movie was about the 18 soldiers who died. Not about the 1000 somali's who died.


 
Old 01-25-2002, 05:30 PM   #42
Unless
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by MisterSquishyHalo:
Look I understand you havent seen the movie, but basically the Book=the Movie, LIke Jaggie says. ALthough Bowden interviewed alot of somali's on their accounts of the battle. This movie was made for America. If you tried to fit everything in, this movie would have run well over three hours. Some things had to be cut, the Somali stuff was cut. Not cause it was being racist, but well, because this movie was about the 18 soldiers who died. Not about the 1000 somali's who died.
Yes me understand. But implying does not require showing it from the point of view of the somalians. The opinion of this reviewer obviously thinks that they were portrayed inaccurately, implying that they were evil and not just people which i think is a serious accusation especially when this Bin Laden shit as hit the fan as you said. Did you see the movie? did you feel that way? Jaggie did not think the movie he saw implied that so he disagrees justly, some people apparently feel it does.

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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too
"He said, "You're not Him

 
Old 01-25-2002, 06:14 PM   #43
tweedyburd
 
Posts: n/a
Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by Unless:
I disagree, I see it as very dangerous to present to an ignorant country based on the idea of "by the people for the people" a film that presents something as inaccurately good vs. evil.
It's only presented in that black and white way because you're making it out to be. Sensible Americans know the difference. Apparently you're not one of those.


Quote:
Originally posted by Unless:

They only have to make their lives seem of the same worth, thats all I ask,
Hollywood has no obligation to do that, especially with this film because it wasn't the point of the film to show the 'inner worth of the Other' or whatever. It was about a mission and the soldiers' perspective of said mission and what happened when it went wrong. The movie does its job in that way and to ask it to show sympathy or empathy of any kind to the opposition belittles the mission and the historical perspective of the soliders, which the film portrayed. The film isn't about what you think it should be, and to do so would be to compromise its perspective.


 
Old 01-25-2002, 06:30 PM   #44
Unless
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by tweedyburd:
nothing
what are u sticking up for that first little invisipoint made no analytical sense, I hope it didn't take you long to think up. How something is portrayed has nothing to do with intelligence, portrayed is outward, contrived is inward. I did not see it so I never said what I thought so be intelligent enough to absorb that you can't read my mind. I respect Jaggies opinion on the film, because he knows what hes talking about, your just worried about making comebacks. Same for the second part, I didn't see anything worth replying to the first time i read through, I'll pain myself to read it again to see if i notice somethign......



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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

 
Old 01-25-2002, 06:32 PM   #45
Unless
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Hollywood has no obligation to do that, especially with this film because it wasn't the point of the film to show the 'inner worth of the Other' or whatever. It was about a mission and the soldiers' perspective of said mission and what happened when it went wrong. The movie does its job in that way and to ask it to show sympathy or empathy of any kind to the opposition belittles the mission and the historical perspective of the soliders, which the film portrayed. The film isn't about what you think it should be, and to do so would be to compromise its perspective.
nah nothing that has anything to do with anything ive said



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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

 
Old 01-25-2002, 06:42 PM   #46
THE MACHINA666
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by MisterSquishyHalo:

Its a war movie what do you want? Romance? Drama? None of those things were in there. It was just a firefight for 18 hours.

How about depth? You know... what makes a movie better, 95% of a time. If I want to see firefights, building blowing off and lots of shoot-out for almost 2 and a half hours, I have plently of choices.

BHD missed that "depth" part (although I have my reasons why the director, who is no fool, did it this way) if you ask me, therefore I think this movie is just average.

Though I have to admit "war" flicks aren't my forte.



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Don't ask... be blast!

 
Old 01-25-2002, 07:21 PM   #47
tweedyburd
 
Posts: n/a
Arrow

Um... I addressed everything you said, dipshit. I'm sorry if you can only accuse me of not doing so. Perhaps if you didn't build your arguments on a platform of incoherence, you'd be a little more effective in what you're trying to say.

And why am I ever arguing with someone whose opinion is extraneous, being that you've not even seen the damn film. Ah, if only all of us could site a bunch of articles and let them speak for us...

 
Old 01-25-2002, 07:25 PM   #48
Graveflower
 
Posts: n/a
Talking

Quote:
Originally posted by THE MACHINA666:
(the director, who is no fool)

Wait, have you seen GI Jane?

 
Old 01-25-2002, 07:54 PM   #49
raindrops + sunshowers
 
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Post

If it's anything like Gladiator, in which characters were archetypes and death was mere spectacle, I completely understand why people would consider it racist.

However, I haven't seen it, so I have no idea if it's like that or not.

 
Old 01-25-2002, 08:01 PM   #50
Unless
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by tweedyburd:
Um... I addressed everything you said, dipshit. I'm sorry if you can only accuse me of not doing so. Perhaps if you didn't build your arguments on a platform of incoherence, you'd be a little more effective in what you're trying to say.

And why am I ever arguing with someone whose opinion is extraneous, being that you've not even seen the damn film. Ah, if only all of us could site a bunch of articles and let them speak for us...

I can't help it if you have to invent what you cohere to. How can my opinion be extraneous when i never gave it, oh yes because you are psychic. let me tell you.. YOU CALL CAN! the choice is yours, I choose not to. But if I misinterpreted as easily as you I might want to let another person speak for me. oh yea and did you see the movie? because if you did you haven't said so yet, I'd like to assume you had but I really think if you had it would have been useful to you way before this point.


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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

 
Old 01-25-2002, 08:22 PM   #51
Unless
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Graveflower:
Wait, have you seen GI Jane?
hahahaha



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http://www.davidbowie.com/users/unless/U_nless.jpg
I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"
He said, "You're not Him

 
Old 01-25-2002, 09:11 PM   #52
THE MACHINA666
 
Posts: n/a
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by Graveflower:
Wait, have you seen GI Jane?
Bwhehehe... Good point.

But it's like if I was judging you entirely by taking only one or 2 of your replies. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/wink.gif




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Don't ask... be blast!

 
Old 01-25-2002, 09:15 PM   #53
The Sacred and Profane
 
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Post

I've never really been a fan of War Movies.

 
Old 01-25-2002, 11:14 PM   #54
numberthirteen
 
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Post

I dislike Elvis Mitchell


Black Hawk Down is no cinematic masterpiece. It seems as if Ridley Scott is content with just capturing the action on film and cannot be bothered with aesthetics, mise en scene, etc. But I'm nitpicking- When the movie is put in context of actuality, it becomes an American masterpiece.

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I want his heart. I want to eat his children. Praise be to Allah ... I want to rip out his heart and feed it to him.

 
Old 01-25-2002, 11:42 PM   #55
Nate the Grate
 
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Post

my city (Lewiston) has been a gathering spot for Somalians (btw, they're not even freakin called "Somalis". they're Somalians). there are a ton of Somalians in my school. I've talked to a bunch of them. they say the Americans were the best thing that ever happened to their country. most of them wanted to get out of there, but didn't have anywhere to go. when we stepped in, and they saw what we were doing, they realized that America was the place to be. Apparently the Somalians who have gone to see it say it is very representational of what happened. many have become very emotional when at the theatre (from what I've heard).

so yeah, good movie.
and whoever that guy was that was saying the US did the wrong this is sadly mistaken.

 
Old 01-26-2002, 12:00 AM   #56
Lunadisarm
 
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Post

I thought it was good, intense, and gripping. For everyone that has said that the movie lacks depth, I ask you one question: how would YOU make it better? Do you want breaks in the action for a character to belt out a monologue about how he is feeling isolated, across the ocean, and deeply afraid of dying? Come on, it portrayed the intensity of battle and the emotions that the people felt in a way that made you feel as if you were there watching it in live action. THAT is gripping to me at least.

~beth

 
Old 01-26-2002, 01:21 AM   #57
liarsclub
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Lunadisarm:
I thought it was good, intense, and gripping. For everyone that has said that the movie lacks depth, I ask you one question: how would YOU make it better? Do you want breaks in the action for a character to belt out a monologue about how he is feeling isolated, across the ocean, and deeply afraid of dying? Come on, it portrayed the intensity of battle and the emotions that the people felt in a way that made you feel as if you were there watching it in live action. THAT is gripping to me at least.

~beth
How would I have made it better? Well, first, I would've told the story without having a bunch of yahoos running around, prentending to look and act like Rangers, Delta Force, etc. talking with Hollywood lines that sound like leftovers from Armageddon. Next, Ted Sizemore would've never been directed to act like Duvall's Kilgore from Apocalypse Now - that was completely unforgivable. Then, I wouldn't have had so many buddy combinations - stick to one or two and leave it at that. AND ETC.

Basically, the dialogue and the weak characters (who stood out in the movie?!) ruined this movie. In fact, the actual event wasn't even a good idea for a movie in the first place - it should've been a documentary instead. That's how I would've made it better - I would've made it a documentary or even a mix. But, to have it as just as action movie with no characters or dialogue is just boring and too Arnold for me.

It's all about storytelling and this movie does nothing of the sort - BHD is just blanks and explosives. If that grips you and makes you like the movie, more power to you - I just look for something more in film.

ps - if this movie was to build racial tensions, they would've included the American soldiers being drug through the streets by the Somalians - most visually shocking part of the story and Ridley left it out...

 
Old 01-26-2002, 02:50 AM   #58
tweedyburd
 
Posts: n/a
Talking

Quote:
Originally posted by Unless:

I can't help it if you have to invent what you cohere to. How can my opinion be extraneous when i never gave it, oh yes because you are psychic.

You gave your opinion on what the film's angle might be, from the perspective of some half-wit critic trying to over intellectualize the portrayal--must I go back and quote you? What else is your presence in this thread been for other than to justify your uninformed opinion by subtly veiling it with someone elses argument?

Baby steps, folks. Baby steps.



[This message has been edited by tweedyburd (edited 01-26-2002).]

 
Old 01-26-2002, 03:51 AM   #59
The exploding boy
 
Posts: n/a
Red face

Quote:
Originally posted by Graveflower:
Wait, have you seen GI Jane?
But have you seen alien, blade runner, the duellists?

 
Old 01-26-2002, 03:33 PM   #60
THE MACHINA666
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by liarsclub:
How would I have made it better? Well, first, I would've told the story without having a bunch of yahoos running around, prentending to look and act like Rangers, Delta Force, etc. talking with Hollywood lines that sound like leftovers from Armageddon. Next, Ted Sizemore would've never been directed to act like Duvall's Kilgore from Apocalypse Now - that was completely unforgivable. Then, I wouldn't have had so many buddy combinations - stick to one or two and leave it at that. AND ETC.

Basically, the dialogue and the weak characters (who stood out in the movie?!) ruined this movie. In fact, the actual event wasn't even a good idea for a movie in the first place - it should've been a documentary instead. That's how I would've made it better - I would've made it a documentary or even a mix. But, to have it as just as action movie with no characters or dialogue is just boring and too Arnold for me.

It's all about storytelling and this movie does nothing of the sort - BHD is just blanks and explosives. If that grips you and makes you like the movie, more power to you - I just look for something more in film.

ps - if this movie was to build racial tensions, they would've included the American soldiers being drug through the streets by the Somalians - most visually shocking part of the story and Ridley left it out...
Could not have said it better. Some people are fine w/ explosions and a "fake showing of reality" (far too gracious images to be taken "as if I was there, in the live action"). That's ok I guess.

But some people just want more.


Scott probably was under much pressure not to pass too big messages in this film. Some wounds are still fresh you know?



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Don't ask... be blast!

 
 


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