Netphoria Message Board


Go Back   Netphoria Message Board > General Boards > General Chat Message Board
Register Netphoria's Amazon.com Link Members List Photo Album Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-06-2017, 09:28 PM   #391
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,998
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
That's probably true. There's evidence in psychology that people often make inferences about their own attitudes and motivations based on their behaviour, in a similar fashion to the way we make inferences about others' behaviours from their external behaviour.

I can't remember the term (Reprise to thread). There was one experiment where they had two groups complete some task, one group being compensated monetarily, the other not. The group that was not given money rated their enjoyment of the task as higher, probably because they reasoned "if I did it for free, I must have liked it.
The way I remember it is one group got $1 and one got $20 for doing some boring task, like sorting or data entry or something. They had to then tell the next participant that they liked the activity. Then they were questioned about how the felt about lying. The $20 people were like welp I just lied for the money. The others rationalized that they did actually like the activity.

here's a summary, we were both sorta right: http://www.intropsych.com/ch15_socia...issonance.html

people do a lot to assuage cognitive dissonance but i don't think that's where you were trying to go. something like backwards inference

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 09:40 PM   #392
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 25,918
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
Ain't nobody got time for this shit rbg, just cut your losses and move on.

Move the fuck on, is my advice.

Give a human just a few more years and suddenly they're no longer the same confused pit of shame and desire. They're like, all normal and shit.

No I'm kidding. Sort of. I mean, I think once you're over 25, staying away from the under 25s will save you a lot of trouble and drama
Quote:
Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
23 year olds are fucked and I mean FUCKED in the head. Move on, my friend. 26 year olds are where it's at.
I would basically agree although we have some people in their early 20s here who I think are quite rad.

This woman was pretty mature for her age, but I did start to feel an age difference the more time we spent together. At one point we were exchanging stories about hard break ups, and I told about my ex who I dated for four years. Her longest relationship was like 9 months or something. Not that it's a competition, but I think our relationship experiences were just kind of different and I would probably be better off with someone a little more similar. Funny how now, being socialist polyamarous weed jews seems like surface level stuff

good news is, the other woman I have been seeing is 26. she's doing disaster relief work rn though and won't be back for a few more weeks

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard View Post
I think people sometimes just make up a rationale to account for a feeling they don't necessarily understand.
I sometimes wonder if everything we do is like this. The universe is deterministic so maybe we just act based on the forces around us and then explain those actions to ourselves later

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 10:12 PM   #393
Disco King
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Disco King's Avatar
 
Location: "The worst poster on this board by far." -- The worst poster on this board by far
Posts: 4,310
Default

Well, if the universe is deterministic, then not only our actions, but our feelings about our actions, would be predetermined. And if that's the case, there's no reason why the intermediary cause of our actions couldn't still be the same internal mental states and attitudes that we later ascribe the actions to. So, regardless of whether or not the universe is deterministic, we're left with the same problem.

 
Disco King is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 10:17 PM   #394
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 25,918
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
Well, if the universe is deterministic, then not only our actions, but our feelings about our actions, would be predetermined. And if that's the case, there's no reason why the intermediary cause of our actions couldn't still be the same internal mental states and attitudes that we later ascribe the actions to. So, regardless of whether or not the universe is deterministic, we're left with the same problem.
gaaaaaah I can't right now

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 10:17 PM   #395
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 25,918
Default

I do accept determinism as my lord and saviour

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 10:18 PM   #396
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,998
Default

you explained that very well, dk. if everything is deterministic than everything is deterministic, including our discussion of determinism. it should be humbling to realize this. if everything is determined than none of us is really better than anyone else

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 10:37 PM   #397
teh b0lly!!1
Socialphobic
 
teh b0lly!!1's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 14,578
Default

could there be a degree of determinism?

like, for the outcome to be prescribed and set in stone, but that there are several mildly different ways to get there?

i've been going fucking crazy these past two weeks reading articles about the universe i think i'm gonna lose it

 
teh b0lly!!1 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 10:44 PM   #398
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 25,918
Default

I know a lot of people like the idea of soft determinism because it seems to admit what we know is probably true while holding on to the idea that we can make decisions and have free will

But I think that's just a cop out. Hard determinism it is. The universe is a math equation and iamsixyearsold

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 10:52 PM   #399
FlamingGlobes
Minion of Satan
 
FlamingGlobes's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,237
Default

Took's mom likes a lil soft determinism.

 
FlamingGlobes is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 10:53 PM   #400
buzzard
Apocalyptic Poster
 
buzzard's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,096
Default

When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future.

 
buzzard is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 10:57 PM   #401
FlamingGlobes
Minion of Satan
 
FlamingGlobes's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard View Post
When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future.

 
FlamingGlobes is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:21 PM   #402
vixnix
Socialphobic
 
vixnix's Avatar
 
Location: "jonny this is very bad music"
Posts: 10,470
Default

Chaos theory and random mutation make hard determinism seem impossible.

Not that either of those things affect our capacity for free will.

But is there really some ultimate chain of events stretching back forever where you can trace one thing being the result of a previous thing? It seems as though there have been some interruptions.

 
vixnix is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:23 PM   #403
FlamingGlobes
Minion of Satan
 
FlamingGlobes's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,237
Default


 
FlamingGlobes is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:23 PM   #404
FlamingGlobes
Minion of Satan
 
FlamingGlobes's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,237
Default


 
FlamingGlobes is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:23 PM   #405
FlamingGlobes
Minion of Satan
 
FlamingGlobes's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,237
Default


 
FlamingGlobes is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:25 PM   #406
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 25,918
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
Chaos theory and random mutation make hard determinism seem impossible.

Not that either of those things affect our capacity for free will.

But is there really some ultimate chain of events stretching back forever where you can trace one thing being the result of a previous thing? It seems as though there have been some interruptions.
nah, the physical universe is absolutely deterministic. there is no real compelling evidence otherwise. the direction the water rolls over laura dern's hand is precisely determined each time by how the car is moving, how the drop lands, the force ian malcom used on the dropper, etc etc. but the output is determined 100% by the input. just because there are too many factors for us to correctly predict where the water will go does not negate the basic laws of the physical universe.

everything that is happening, will happen, or has ever happened is the direct unfolding cause-and-effect chain reaction of the First Cause

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:45 PM   #407
vixnix
Socialphobic
 
vixnix's Avatar
 
Location: "jonny this is very bad music"
Posts: 10,470
Default

I'm probably remembering incorrectly. I remember quantum chaos type events that can't be predicted by prior conditions, which indicated that while at many levels hard determinism holds, ultimately speaking, it does not.

I'm so old there is probably new evidence available since I was at uni, which shows conclusively that hard determinism holds in all situations.

 
vixnix is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:52 PM   #408
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 25,918
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
I'm probably remembering incorrectly. I remember quantum chaos type events that can't be predicted by prior conditions, which indicated that while at many levels hard determinism holds, ultimately speaking, it does not.

I'm so old there is probably new evidence available since I was at uni, which shows conclusively that hard determinism holds in all situations.
It's true that indeterminism has been observed on the subatomic level. However, it has never been observed above that, so even if it does exist, it ostensibly has no effect on the larger deterministic universe.

I know a lot of physicists think it's more likely that what is happening is a problem with our ability to observe and not actual indeterminism though

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:56 PM   #409
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,998
Default

i do believe in teh_b0lly's degree of determinism thing. yes things are determined, but not every little thing has to be exactly the same for a determined conclusion to happen. the question then is where is that line. like if subatomic particles don't have to act deterministically and don't interrupt determinism, is it only subatomic particles? aren't we as insignificant as subatomic particles on a certain scale?

Last edited by reprise85 : 12-06-2017 at 11:58 PM. Reason: edit nevermind rbg brought it up already

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:57 PM   #410
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 25,918
Default

I see the appeal of that, but ultimately I can't help but think it's just a way to hold onto the illusion of free will. science suggests a totally deterministic universe

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 12:22 AM   #411
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,998
Default

care to source that?

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 12:35 AM   #412
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 25,918
Default

I can look up something later, but I know for certain that indeterminism has never been observed above the subatomic level. So any argument against hard determinism has to assume 1) that observed indeterminism is accurate and not a problem with our ability to detect causes and observe at this level and 2) indeterminism is occurring on a larger level even if it has never been detected

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 12:37 AM   #413
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 25,918
Default

my biggest road block with the wiggle room determinism idea though is that it seems predicated on the concept that some events are "bigger" or "more important" than others. Maybe this is not exactly what you mean, but a lot of people I have discussed this with previously like the idea popularized in movies and tv that big life changing events are set in stone but the series leading up to them can be altered (Final Destination timeline physics with a course-correcting universe is a good example). But the universe and physical laws do not differentiate between an event like your death and a random molecule of your skin blowing away in the wind. these are human divisions

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 12:58 AM   #414
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,998
Default

ah but death is not an event, it is comprised of many molecular changes/events. still you have a good point, and i'm sure if we got down to it we could find many events in a molecule of skin blowing away as well. i guess in a way these "bigger" things are triggered once some kind of threshold is reached, for example enough tissue dies in your heart and it stops beating. or enough blood drains out of you that your blood pressure can no longer be sustained at all and then it stops and then your brain stops getting oxygen since it is not getting blood and your brain eventually dies after a few minutes.

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 01:06 AM   #415
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: WILD BOY
Posts: 25,918
Default

although honestly who knows apparently we all live in a hologram projected from a black hole or something

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 12:40 PM   #416
ilikeplanets
Socialphobic
 
ilikeplanets's Avatar
 
Location: Ignore List
Posts: 10,728
Default

well duh

 
ilikeplanets is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 02:24 PM   #417
ilikeplanets
Socialphobic
 
ilikeplanets's Avatar
 
Location: Ignore List
Posts: 10,728
Default

I mean even if it's predetermined it's still meaningless, so

 
ilikeplanets is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2017, 11:18 PM   #418
toase
Apocalyptic Poster
 
toase's Avatar
 
Location: AA meetings
Posts: 3,284
Default

A friend of mine gave me a bottle of wine
A true friend
respect

me drinking

 
toase is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2017, 11:20 PM   #419
FoolofaTook
Braindead
 
FoolofaTook's Avatar
 
Location: The Walla Wallaean Vale
Posts: 17,560
Default

No wine
no weed
no sex




listening to burzum

 
FoolofaTook is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2017, 11:36 PM   #420
toase
Apocalyptic Poster
 
toase's Avatar
 
Location: AA meetings
Posts: 3,284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
listening to burzum

 
toase is offline
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Google


Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Something I have noticed... rottenugly General Chat Archive 38 04-17-2012 04:25 PM
my very original ask me questions thread dr.benway General Chat Archive 27 08-04-2009 05:26 PM
biggest board loser (with poll) dean_r_koontz General Chat Archive 198 05-07-2008 05:20 PM
I didn't realize people on this board were actually smashing pumpkin fans. I Ate My Hamster General Chat Archive 29 06-12-2007 11:49 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:23 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Smashing Pumpkins, Alternative Music
& General Discussion Message Board and Forums
www.netphoria.org - Copyright 1998-2014