Machina To Zwan: The universal moment fans realized BC's lost the magic?

[fuzzyroes]

I mean most fans had to realize around this period that Billy Corgan wasn't the songwriting genius we thought he might be right? And if there was any doubt left after "Zwan" I'm sure the Future Embrace sealed the deal.

I wonder though... What was the overall mood like in the fan communities during this time? Was there a lot of denial? A lot of thinking it was just a phase?

I personally remember thinking that all it took was the SP umbrella to relinquish the goods again, and while I dug Zeitgeist, I wasn't really a hardcore fan during the heyday (even though I thought of Billy in the highest regard)... It's easy to see with hindsight why Z was such a disappointment for fans.

Here we are 10 fucking years later guys! We got Ogilala.... The dreams dead... Corgan sucks now. Long live 1991-1998

[Shallowed]

ok

[amoergosum]

https://i.imgur.com/OjEuyX7.png

[cardiac]

Zeitgeist seems to have been the turning point for most people (and even that had an initial positive reaction from most fans). Even more so than Zwan. MSOTS had it's haters when it came out, but at the time most people saw it as an intentional side step for a genious songwriter. People still had faith that he could do stuff on par with SP1 if he really put his heart in to it. Obviously they don't anymore.

[MarquisInSpades]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

I mean most fans had to realize around this period that Billy Corgan wasn't the songwriting genius we thought he might be right? And if there was any doubt left after "Zwan" I'm sure the Future Embrace sealed the deal.

I wonder though... What was the overall mood like in the fan communities during this time? Was there a lot of denial? A lot of thinking it was just a phase?

I personally remember thinking that all it took was the SP umbrella to relinquish the goods again, and while I dug Zeitgeist, I wasn't really a hardcore fan during the heyday (even though I thought of Billy in the highest regard)... It's easy to see with hindsight why Z was such a disappointment for fans.

Here we are 10 fucking years later guys! We got Ogilala.... The dreams dead... Corgan sucks now. Long live 1991-1998

First off, 2001* Machina is amazing.

[amoergosum]

[smashingjj]

untrue fan alert

[MarquisInSpades]

Originally Posted by amoergosum

what the fuck is he doing here

[MarquisInSpades]

sigh

[MarquisInSpades]

only if billy weren't a fat fuck who has a weird fetish for conspiracy theories anymore

sigh


\s (kinda)

[Rairun]

Machina had its detractors, but lots of fans loved it as well.

Most people who didn't leave because of Machina were really excited for Zwan. And Zwan actually had very few detractors in the community until Mary Star of the Sea leaked. There was a lot of drama and complaints because it clipped so much, but overall, even if the album had no clipping, the feeling would have been of disappointment. Many ended up enjoying the album for what it was, even loving it, but there was a palpable feeling of "I can't wait to hear what they do next" - we all knew they were capable of making an amazing Djali Zwan album.

Billy lost a lot of people during the breakup of Zwan. It wasn't even the fact that they broke up - I know a few fans who gave up on him when he started his baby blue blog to talk shit about his "immoral bandmates", both from Zwan and the Pumpkins. TheFutureEmbrance was released when people were already suspicious of him, and the reception was lukewarm. Then he announced the reunion straight away, and the community was pretty split - some thought it was a terrible idea, others thought it was exciting, and some of us were both suspicious and secretly excited.

By the time Zeitgeist was released, community sentiment was pretty low (the stolen photos incident didn't help). Initially, the live shows had people excited - even those who disliked the album - but that didn't last very long. I myself gave up completely when American Gothic was released. I had enjoyed a few of the new residency songs, but the EP just didn't deliver.

[VoxUpDoc]

Zwan? No, they were credible, the live shows were great. It was Billy's big comeback.

Mary Star of the Sea and break-up announcement? Yes. He had nowhere to go and TFE had no commercial appeal.

[AveryLoren]

I’ve been a member here since 98/99 and I remember Zwan’s early buzz was positive. The live shows had people ecstatic but that all came crashing down when the album was released. It wasn’t just the horrendous production either. I clearly remember out of all the live songs the album pretty much consisted of what the fan base considered the worst songs. I rarely see that mentioned anywhere.

[MyKeyZ]

Enjoyed Machina, hated Zwan and The Future Embrace. That's where he lost me.

[BumbleBeeMouth]

funny I was listening to Zwan the other day, the rock am ring show was pretty decent and to be honest, I thought it had some good legs.

Not sure what pajo contributed, but there you go.

[Shadaloo]

Machina I recall a consensus of people being kind of happy TSP were trying to rock again, but I remember when MSOTS dropped, someone brought the album to a party I was attending and basically the entire place reacted with what the fuck is this hippy shit

[Funbags]

Originally Posted by AveryLoren

I’ve been a member here since 98/99 and I remember Zwan’s early buzz was positive. The live shows had people ecstatic but that all came crashing down when the album was released. It wasn’t just the horrendous production either. I clearly remember out of all the live songs the album pretty much consisted of what the fan base considered the worst songs. I rarely see that mentioned anywhere.

This is exactly right. No one thought Zwan sucked until the album came out.

Billy's desire for instant commercial success ruined Zwan.

[Funbags]

I also loved the Future Embrace. It was like Adore pushed to extremes. The Jungian/old-timey aesthetic mashed with cold electronics was brilliant IMHO.

It's SP2 that fucking sucks.

[Corgan's Bluff]

Even NICKELBACK want MACHINA to grow to its full greatness

http://crypticrock.com/wp-content/up...back-slide.jpg

[VoxUpDoc]

Originally Posted by AveryLoren

I’ve been a member here since 98/99 and I remember Zwan’s early buzz was positive. The live shows had people ecstatic but that all came crashing down when the album was released. It wasn’t just the horrendous production either. I clearly remember out of all the live songs the album pretty much consisted of what the fan base considered the worst songs. I rarely see that mentioned anywhere.

Not the worst songs but it was mostly later material.
It's fucking insane these songs weren't on the album:

Chrysanthemum
Glorious
My Life & Times
Cast A Stone
Rivers
A New Poetry

Especially when Declarations, Heartsongs, Yeah, Baby! Let's Rock and Come With Me made it.

[themadcaplaughs]

A lot of people were disappointed by Mary Star of the Sea, but I think we held on to hope that the next album would be great, and that Billy still had a lot of good songs waiting in the wings (see the previous post). At this time, Billy had not established the precedent (or we weren't as aware of it) of playing interesting songs live and then never recording or releasing them.

[amoergosum]

I just noticed that someone uploaded the full Blue Note show:

[myosis]

i watched Spun this weekend and the songs sound really nice. billy's voice is great.

[Grox]

as a young, casual fan I remember my parents talking about how bad the reviews for MSOTS were, and how Billy was "done." by the time TFE came out, it was really the album cover that was the punchline. wasn't so much the music as the cover that really solidified the idea of Billy as this insane narcissist with bad judgment and no self-awareness imo

[SPLATTER]

Zeitgeist was the point of uh-oh... I remember Bring the Light, That's The Way, and Bleeding the Orchid as sounding so lame it totally blew my mind he could make something so thin.

But then you still had some great stuff like Gossamer live and Unites States and Tarantula so all hope wasn't lost. (I even liked Super Christ a lot)

Zwan wasn't concerning with regards to his talent eroding. Neither was Machina. The songs were there, even if the production was not.

[run2pee]

Originally Posted by amoergosum

I just noticed that someone uploaded the full Blue Note show:

Shit yeah I was at that shit like three fuckers back from the rail

Have to smoke a bean tonite watch the shit out this fuck, thanks for the headsup, iamorgasm

[cork_soaker]

i, too, was there

mostly i remember my back hurting quite a lot

[cork_soaker]

upon further reflection, it seems i can remember nothing else about it other than that my back really hurt a lot

[run2pee]

I member involuntarily screaming "billlllllllie!!!!!!! billlllllie!!!!!!!" from the moment bill opened his snarling yap on dust my broom

Don't know what came over me; maybe his genius reworking of the lyrics: "yeaaaaaaaaahhhhh wha na na woah-oh yoooooooooooo nooooooooo / yeaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh ya wha na hahna yanna woo noo"

[amoergosum]

'How do you say you name?'
>>>

https://youtu.be/tfu5zd0qtZ0?t=1h12m39s