Billy's Inner-Child Work & Siamese Dream.

[Funbags]

I've started to going back over Billy's discog ever since he name-dropped Inner Child Work on his IG. For those that don't know, this is a type of therapy that seeks to heal deeply ingrained cognitive distortions in adults who suffered childhood trauma, by directly addressing the dissociated "inner child" aspect of a person's psyche.

It gained a lot of popularity with the publication of John Bradshaw's book, Home Coming in 1990. So there's a strong possibility Billy became aware of this type of therapy if he sought professional help for his suicidal depression prior to SD.

That got me thinking about Disarm, because I always assumed it was a dialog between Billy and his parents...but it actually makes more sense as a dialog between adult Billy and his wounded inner-child, which is directly from this therapy. These are the original demo lyrics:

disarm you with a smile
cut you like you want me to
cut my little child
inside of me and such a part of you

He's directly addressing the wounded part of himself:

The killer in me is the killer in you
My love
I send this smile over to you

In fact, I would say that songs like Quiet, Rocket are written directly from the perspective of Billy's inner-child, carrying out the therapeutic task of allowing it to express itself by literally giving it a rock band.

AND THAT IS YOUR WILD THEORY FOR TODAY.

[Funbags]

I also wouldn't be surprised if the resurrection of William Patrick Corgan and his love of wrestling isn't part of this whole process. After all, he "created Billy" to separate himself from his childhood.

[run2pee]

Yeah

Great thread, keep going

[Funbags]

Well, sticking with Disarm...I think the reason a song about child abuse was a hit, and had the lasting impact it's had, is because it expresses an unconscious desire in SP's audience to acknowledge their own wounded inner child.

As an experiment, find a quiet place and watch Billy perform Disarm on the Shiny tour and imagine yourself in the photos. What do you feel?

What Billy is showing is the Wonder Child, the Wounded Child, and the False Self.

https://i.imgur.com/mNvsx4X.jpg https://i.imgur.com/8Cwv1vA.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4r6gxqx.jpg

[run2pee]

Friekin sobbed lustily to this version of disarm in front of everyone at the theater last week. Yeah, it was heartwrenchingly effective at doing what you said for me

And wow, a hit about child abuse. He took what happened to him and made mobs upon mobs or audiences holler those words back at him the world over. Can’t imagine the catharsis in that

[run2pee]

Can you talk more about those Wonder Child’s and the whole work/theory please im not going to be googling or clicking any article links, i’d rather appreciate your own summary here, obviously youve thought about it a lot

[Forgotten Child]

I always thought it was about abortion or something. I think I remember him saying something about his dad beating his mother while she was pregnant with him.

[Funbags]

Originally Posted by Run To Me

Can you talk more about those Wonder Child’s and the whole work/theory please im not going to be googling or clicking any article links, i’d rather appreciate your own summary here, obviously youve thought about it a lot

I'm not an expert, so you probably should research it if you think it applies to you!

The basic gist of those terms is:

The Wonder Child is the original, pure child state that's a part of us from birth. Naturally creative, curious, and 'divine'. ("I will never forget" on the photo). The Wounded Inner Child is the part of the child whose natural emotional/physical needs are "split off" and buried to ensure survival ("Broken Boy"). The False Self is like a protective mask that only seems real and meets the needs of others ("Dead").

Like I said, I'm not an expert and those explanations would probably make an expert barf.

Originally Posted by Forgotten Child

I always thought it was about abortion or something. I think I remember him saying something about his dad beating his mother while she was pregnant with him.

lol okay! There's a quote on SPFC where Billy says in the early 90s;

"The reason I wrote Disarm was because, I didn't have the guts to kill my parents, so I thought I'd get back at them through song. And rather then have an angry, angry, angry violent song I'd thought I'd write something beautiful and make them realize what tender feelings I have in my heart, and make them feel really bad for treating me like shit."

Which is what I've thought for years -as if the "you" was his abuser being disarmed with a smile. But it doesn't really make sense that way. It makes more sense if the "you" is part of himself.

[T&T]

I've always taken it as a song to the broken and hurt inner child
it wouldn't make any sense any other way.

[run2pee]

Originally Posted by Funbags

I'm not an expert, so you probably should research it if you think it applies to you!

The basic gist of those terms is:

Like I said, I'm not an expert

OMFG I JUST SAID I WONT BE DOING ANY INDEPENDENT RESEARCH YOU STARTED THIS CONVERSATION FFS TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY GET TO WORK AND ANSWER MY QUESTIONS OR ELSE WHY EVEN MAKE THE THREAD

[FoolofaTook]

IT'S SPELLED JIST FATHERFUCKER

[Mals Marola]

i'll jist on yer dad's face, motherlover

[FoolofaTook]

please not on the sabbath

[Mals Marola]

Oh, ONLY on the sabbath, baby!

[Mals Marola]

Anyway, yeah there's definitely a bit of this & what i perceive to be some kind of primal scream therapy going on with Siamese & Mellon Collie - a big factor as to why they're so emotionally resonant compared to the majority of his other (& specifically, recent) work

The first time I listened to Siamese Dream, I wasn't picking up or really even looking for this, from that album. But one day it just clicked, & it became one of my favorite albums of all time and all of a sudden SP were life-changing for me. Several artists touch upon therapy-related themes & whatnot in their music but none had quite as successfully "opened my eyes" and had me starting to revisit my own past & present damages as much as Siamese, Mellon Collie, & all the stuff surrounding it

[Mals Marola]

the song "Spaceboy" is another one presented as being written for or about another person but really I could see it being just as autobiographical as it is dedicated to anyone else

[FoolofaTook]

Originally Posted by Mals Marola

Oh, ONLY on the sabbath, baby!

During a classroom discussion about the sanctity of the Sabbath, a participant raised an issue: “I am struggling with a sin,” he confessed. “I am tempted to have sex with my wife on Sabbath.”

The topic is not uncommon, and it raises a diversity of opinions,1 although little has been published.2

What does the Bible say on the subject? We shall consider the question by reviewing (1) the leading argument used against sex on Sabbath; (2) the biblical view of sexuality; (3) perversion of the biblical view; and (4) concluding observations.

Leading argument
The leading argument against engaging in sex on Sabbath is based on Isaiah 58:13: “If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day” (KJV). Since sex is pleasurable, scriptural injunction against engaging in intercourse on Sabbath is seen as obvious.3

The context of Isaiah 58 refers to Sabbath on the Day of Atonement. The Day of Atonement was a day devoted to self-examination, judgment, and cleansing. Every individual was supposed to participate lest he or she be “cut off” (Lev. 23:29). There is no textual evidence to indicate that sex was forbidden on the Sabbath or the Day of Atonement. Rene Gehring argues that in the Hebrew Bible, sexual intercourse within marriage is not ritually defiling at all.4 He considers it a fallacy to use related passages like Exodus 19 to suggest that sex within marriage was forbidden. Even if sex within marriage did cause “ritual defilement,” Roy Gane makes the point that such “ritual defilement” only applied while the Shekinah glory was in the temple.5 Thus, within an Old Testament context, sexual pleasure is positive.

This leads back to a study of the word pleasure as found in Isaiah 58:13. It is the same Hebrew word found in verse 3 that warns against exploitation. The word is also translated (NIPS Jewish Bible) as “business pleasure” (or one’s own “business interests”). Isaiah 58:13 refers to the Sabbath as a “delight” (NIV). The word delight in Hebrew is ‘oneg, meaning “exquisite delight.” The word as a noun, used elsewhere, only applies with regard to kings and queens in their royal palaces (Isa. 13:22).

Thus, the implication of Isaiah 58:13 is that God wants us to lay aside our own agenda and replace it with something far more exquisite. God calls us to live a life of selfless pleasure focused on our relationship with God.6 The notion that the Sabbath forbids joyous pleasure during the Sabbath hours is basically a misreading of the original text. As Nancy Van Pelt observes, “If this text actually meant to forbid sex because it is pleasurable, then any pleasure including singing hymns, reading the Bible, or eating should also be forbidden. Isaiah was talking about my seeking my own selfish pleasure. If sex is nothing more than ‘my pleasure,’ it is selfish and therefore wrong not only on the Sabbath but on every other day of the week as well.”7

Another significant argument against sex on Sabbath is that it is distracting. For this reason, some Adventist ministers boast that they sleep in separate beds from their spouse on Friday nights. One Adventist scholar, when asked whether sex on the Sabbath is a distraction, replied with another question: “Is it really less distracting when your spouse does not have sex with you?” Those present nodded in agreement that, of course, it was far less distracting to have sex rather than to be left thinking about it. As Richard Davidson observes, “If those who have sexual intercourse understand how much it teaches us about the deepest levels of intimacy, then such intimacy on the horizontal level actually helps us to grasp the nature of intimacy God wants us to have with His creatures. Far from being ‘distracting’ from intimacy with God, sexual intercourse practiced as God intended it leads us to a deeper understanding of intimacy with Him.”8

Biblical view of sexuality
Faithful Jews, upon the return from exile, established vigorous codes for keeping the seventh-day Sabbath holy. Rabbinic codes allowed married people to have sex on Sabbath,9 and even described it as a special “Sabbath blessing.” Sabbath was considered the bride, and Friday evening was the time of connubial consummation. Even the wife living apart from her husband was granted the privilege of having relations with him on Friday night.10 A refusal on the part of the husband was grounds for the wife to take her husband to the rabbinic court for abandonment.11

God created Adam and Eve and made the marriage relationship holy. During the same Creation week, He “made the Sabbath day holy.” These two holy institutions belong together. Sabbath and sexual intercourse were blended together from the very first Sabbath in history.12 Sexual relations as God intended, and as later expressed by Solomon, are described as this “flame of Yahweh” that helps human beings better understand God.13 In God’s original design, sex was intended as the ultimate way for a man and woman, in holy matrimony, to experi*ence the deepest level of intimacy.14 Adventist ethicist Duane Covrig argues that the Sabbath and marriage are the only institutions that fulfill all six of Jonathan Haidt’s six innate moral foundations (care, fairness, liberty, loy*alty, authority, and sanctity). This rich pairing indicates that the Sabbath is a “tool to help all six areas get reinforced in the life of humans.”15

Such a beautiful gift has been dis*torted and perverted. God’s concern about sexual perversions, especially as associated with pagan rites and rituals, was one of the reasons why God enforced such vigorous demands about uncleanness in conjunction with Hebrew worship. Sexuality was something holy but was perverted by other pagan rites and rituals. The perversion of sex was the ancient sin that contributed to the destruction of the human race during the time of Noah and later again with Sodom and Gomorrah. Sexual perver*sion is a sign of the final days of earth’s history (see Matt. 24:38). Satan clearly wants to distort and pervert such a beautiful gift that God bestowed upon the human race.

Perversion of biblical view
Another perversion came within Hellenistic thinking that denigrated the human body. Early Christian thinkers viewed the soul as trapped inside the body. This concept of the separation of body from soul, a distinctive fea*ture of Platonism, caught on in the early Christian church. It destroyed the meaning of the seventh-day Sabbath and introduced new and unbiblical anthropological teachings such as the idea that the body and soul were separate.16 Through the influence of a series of thinkers, the early Christian church adopted such views with very little resistance.

The early church fathers discussed sex at great length. Tertullian embraced a rigid asceticism that included fasting and celibacy. It is said that Origen “had himself castrated in order to avoid all temptations of the ‘flesh’ and to be able to engage in spiritual conversation with women but not be erotically aroused.”17 Augustine, in his autobiography, described his sexual misconduct to emphasize the dramatic nature of his conversion. As perhaps the most influential thinker in early Christianity, Augustine left a “permanent and fateful impact on the Western Church” about human sexuality.18 He believed that since all human cultures hide private body parts, “humans are deeply ashamed about their sexuality.” The separation of body and soul was evidence when the body took over the rational capacity of the mind to subjugate the body. He thus argued that sex constantly reminds people of their rebellion against God. The human body symbolizes the fact that “[s]exuality and the Christian faith . . . [are] incompatible.”19

The lasting impact of Platonism and, in particular, Augustine can be seen in their view of Christian sexuality. All sexual urges must be repressed. This view of Christian sexuality had a direct correlation to ecclesiology as monks retreated to outposts and caves. Those who denied themselves of sexual pleasure and became celibate were perceived as more spiritual and thus more deserving of church office. All of this contributed to a theology that moved away from the biblical view of sexuality, similar to the seventh-day Sabbath. Such beauty was lost during the Dark Ages.

Concluding observations
The topic of sex on Sabbath is a deeply personal decision that should be prayerfully discussed between a husband and wife. For some married couples, this may be something that they choose “by mutual consent” (1 Cor. 7:5, NIV) to forgo during the hours of the seventh-day Sabbath in order to maintain their spiritual focus. This is admirable, but for others this may be yet more distracting.

For those married couples who do engage in sexual relations on Sabbath, such a view has deep roots in the origi*nal Creation. A view of sexuality that embraces the whole person connects sex with Creation as God’s beautiful gift to humanity. Satan has distorted such a gift. Whether that distortion comes from the view that sex is self-centered pleasure and therefore needs to be suppressed or from the view of today’s mass media that sex has nothing to do with morality and is at the will and wish of the indulger, Satan is behind every such attempt to rob this precious gift of God’s original design.

Back to our question of sex on Sabbath. The principle the apostle Paul conveyed in another context may apply here as well: “Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him” (Rom. 14:3, ESV).

[Mals Marola]

I would have preferred more Jesus memes

[FoolofaTook]

https://pics.awwmemes.com/seventh-da...t-33256396.png

[Mals Marola]

lmao

now we're tooking

[FoolofaTook]

https://pics.me.me/kalamazoo-seventh...l-15540404.png

[FoolofaTook]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/8b/8ba6...4a395b8ac8.jpg

[redbreegull]

immaculate conception really makes my day
but the dude's got lats that make me feel gay

[run2pee]

@funbags: Now you see what happens when you start something you’re not prepared to finish

Mods can my 5-star rating for this thread be revised pls

[Funbags]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

IT'S SPELLED JIST FATHERFUCKER

Wtf. No it's not. Eat a bag of dicks.

[reprise85]

I haven't quite done official Inner Child work but I have done "parts therapy" to some extent, and I think you have a good point with this (parts work being similar but more like there is no original, because of early abuse, the original itself is split into multiple parts). It is something people with severe dissociative disorders often deal with, including multiple internal voices and other things that make our (or, my) relationship with reality (vs dissociation) a bit different than what most people experience. I've always thought Corgan had dissociative tendencies, if not a DD himself. For example, In My Body is obviously about dissociation during abuse.

[Funbags]

Originally Posted by Mals Marola

Anyway, yeah there's definitely a bit of this & what i perceive to be some kind of primal scream therapy going on with Siamese & Mellon Collie - a big factor as to why they're so emotionally resonant compared to the majority of his other (& specifically, recent) work

The first time I listened to Siamese Dream, I wasn't picking up or really even looking for this, from that album. But one day it just clicked, & it became one of my favorite albums of all time and all of a sudden SP were life-changing for me. Several artists touch upon therapy-related themes & whatnot in their music but none had quite as successfully "opened my eyes" and had me starting to revisit my own past & present damages as much as Siamese, Mellon Collie, & all the stuff surrounding it

Yeah, I think this is a major reason for why SP resonated so deeply during the Golden Era. The lyrics sound rock n' roll enough to please the casual listener, but there are themes that trigger unconscious parts of trauma victims' minds.

For example, inner-child therapy involves grieving the wounds of your dissociated inner child and becoming the champion it never had. Exactly the kind of idea Billy would be exposed to in therapy for his childhood.

I mean, look at Rocket:

Bleed in your own light
Dream of your own life
I miss me
I miss everything I'll never be

I torch my soul to show
The world that I am pure
Deep inside my heart
No more lies

He claims that this song is about bleeding in his own light and "not in Kurt's" etc, which I think is total bullshit. Billy is clearly talking about the emancipation of his inner-child imho, and this is why it connects so deeply with people.

Even on Quiet (which is obviously about abuse) starts with those race car engine guitars, which Billy said were inspired by vinyl albums of drag cars from when he was a kid. It's as if Siamese Dream is like a traumatized child becoming a superhero through the power of rock n' roll.

[Funbags]

Originally Posted by reprise85

I haven't quite done official Inner Child work but I have done "parts therapy" to some extent, and I think you have a good point with this (parts work being similar but more like there is no original, because of early abuse, the original itself is split into multiple parts). It is something people with severe dissociative disorders often deal with, including multiple internal voices and other things that make our (or, my) relationship with reality (vs dissociation) a bit different than what most people experience. I've always thought Corgan had dissociative tendencies, if not a DD himself. For example, In My Body is obviously about dissociation during abuse.

Thanks for sharing. I'm no expert, but I've seen some overlap between the concepts in inner-child work and dissociative disorders.

[FoolofaTook]

Originally Posted by Funbags

Wtf. No it's not. Eat a bag of dicks.

jist
/jist/
noun
1.
the substance or essence of a speech or text.
"she noted the jist of each message"
synonyms: essence, substance, central theme, heart of the matter, nub, kernel, marrow, meat, burden, crux

Jist means “essence” or “the main point.” In a legal context, Jist is the grounds of a legal action. Gist is a common misspelling of jist.

[eviltimeban]

https://writingexplained.org/jist-or-gist-difference

What does jist mean? Sometimes, however, writers substitute jist for the word gist. To do so is an error. The word jist is a pronunciation spelling of the word just when spoken with an American Southern accent.

Also, your ma.