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Old 06-25-2018, 06:17 AM   #31
Sonic Johnny
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I suffer from a combination of multiple severe mental illnesses stemming from PTSD that manifest in many different ways, one of which is unwanted intrusive thoughts of the violent persuasion. I have never once been violent to ANYONE in my life, but every time those thoughts appear, and it's maybe 20-50 times A DAY, I am flooded with fear and guilt and disgust and self-loathing. Even though i've resisted them, I still hate myself as much as if I had acted on them all, because these horrific thoughts came from inside me. I am slowly unlearning this response, but it has accounted for a significant part of my self-harm throughout the years. Even with the support of mental health professionals and an incredibly supportive family, I didn't feel comfortable telling anybody that this was the case up until maybe six months ago.

For two decades I carried this all on my own, because I was convinced that even my own mother would stop loving me if she knew. I came extremely close to killing myself on multiple occasions because I felt that these thoughts were a manifestation of a fundamental evil at the core of my being. I understand that bog standard violence and sexual abuse of minors are worlds apart in terms of extremity, but my own lived experience with having horrible compulsions has led me to wonder how many good people suffered silently and killed themselves because of the attitude that just having these thoughts makes you too dangerous to be kept alive and the feeling that they would be persecuted for asking for help.

Last edited by Sonic Johnny : 06-25-2018 at 06:27 AM.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:31 AM   #32
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Right about here is where I'd refrain from making a "now THAT'S what I call toxic masculinity" joke for fear of being choked to death over the internet.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:32 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
We must stop people from buying with their own money inanimate objects that the rest of is don't like.
Personally, I am offended at how many full grown adults see fit to waddle around in public in Crocs.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:47 AM   #34
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i'm sorry sj. good to know you are fighting tho.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:53 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Johnny
...
can I ask you something about this? If not that's absolutely fine, you'll tell me to fuck off and hop along anyway.

I have one friend who struggled with what I thought was a mix of drug abuse and depression for the past 2 decades. now recently he mentioned he finally has the "right kind of therapist." so I asked a bit and,fuck me, reacted in the worst possible way - I thought he was taking the piss.
he talked about some response-relearning mechanism his new therapist does, and how he'd mention he saw a rude 50 something man in the parking lot and envisioned running him over with his car. that's the point where I made the unbelievably daft mistake to assume he was kidding. he wasn't.

these violent thoughts or imagination, does it matter who it is? I can imainge why, in my friend's case, someone who "fits the profile" of the person he was abused by as child would lead to that, but I might be entirely wrong, and he has the same thought of running someone over or stabbing them when he sees a 75 year old woman in the grocery store.

I have also no god damn idea how he managed to keep going all these years without telling anyone in his life but therapists about what sort of images he has in his head.

Last edited by pavementtune : 06-25-2018 at 07:04 AM.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:01 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by pavementtune View Post
can I ask you something about this? If not that's absolutely fine, you'll tell me to fuck off and hop along anyway.

I have one friend who struggled with what I thought was a mix of drug abuse and depression for the past 2 decades. now recently he mentioned he finally has the "right kind of therapist." so I asked a bit and,fuck me, reacted in the worst possible way - I thought he was taking the piss.
he talked about some response-relearning mechanism his new therapist does, and how he'd mention he saw a rude 50 something man in the parking lot and envisioned running him over with his car. that's the point where I made the unbelievably daft mistake to assume he was kidding. he wasn't.

these violent thoughts or imagination, does it matter who it is? I can imainge why, in my friend's case, someone who "fits the profile" of the person he was abused by as child would lead to that, but I might be entirely wrong, and he has the same thought of running someone over or stabbing them when he sees a 75 year old woman in the grocery store.

I have also no god damn idea how he managed to keep going all these years without telling anyone in his life but therapists about what sort of images he has in his head.
I wrote an answer to this but I don't feel comfortable sharing it here so i'll DM it to you.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:03 AM   #37
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oh. yea....good call I think. appreciated!

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:07 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Sonic Johnny View Post
I suffer from a combination of multiple severe mental illnesses stemming from PTSD that manifest in many different ways, one of which is unwanted intrusive thoughts of the violent persuasion. I have never once been violent to ANYONE in my life, but every time those thoughts appear, and it's maybe 20-50 times A DAY, I am flooded with fear and guilt and disgust and self-loathing. Even though i've resisted them, I still hate myself as much as if I had acted on them all, because these horrific thoughts came from inside me. I am slowly unlearning this response, but it has accounted for a significant part of my self-harm throughout the years. Even with the support of mental health professionals and an incredibly supportive family, I didn't feel comfortable telling anybody that this was the case up until maybe six months ago.

For two decades I carried this all on my own, because I was convinced that even my own mother would stop loving me if she knew. I came extremely close to killing myself on multiple occasions because I felt that these thoughts were a manifestation of a fundamental evil at the core of my being. I understand that bog standard violence and sexual abuse of minors are worlds apart in terms of extremity, but my own lived experience with having horrible compulsions has led me to wonder how many good people suffered silently and killed themselves because of the attitude that just having these thoughts makes you too dangerous to be kept alive and the feeling that they would be persecuted for asking for help.
Hey sj i know we don’t interact much but i remember your more active days when i was a bigtime lurker and always enjoyed your voice. Im sorry to hear about your struggle in this regard. i will send positive thoughts/vibes your way, that’s great about your recent progress

I can relate (to a certain extent, not claiming or trying to co-opt your struggle) to that feeling of shame b/c you heard/saw something disturbing/awful that seemed like it came from inside. Lately I have tried to treat my mind’s eye as a sort of stage across which many things pass, not necessarily of my own volition, while i am in the audience, where i affirm i have the power/choice to identify with the thought or send it on its way as something i don’t want

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:16 AM   #39
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..

Last edited by pavementtune : 06-25-2018 at 09:39 AM. Reason: I will get this thrown back at me until 2032.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:04 AM   #40
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I guess for me there is a big difference between people having antisocial thoughts that they are deeply ashamed of and seek help for so they can work out how to stop them from influencing actual behaviour

And people have antisocial thoughts that they are very interested in exploring in whatever way possible, including pushing legal boundaries so that they can experience gratification linked to their antisocial thoughts.

In the context of pedophilia, men who buy these sex dolls so that they can indulge fantasies of victimising children through sexual abuse and rape, are classed by my definition as being examples of toxic masculinity

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:11 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
I guess for me there is a big difference between people having antisocial thoughts that they are deeply ashamed of and seek help for so they can work out how to stop them from influencing actual behaviour

And people have antisocial thoughts that they are very interested in exploring in whatever way possible, including pushing legal boundaries so that they can experience gratification linked to their antisocial thoughts.
Does it occur to you that these two states can actually occur on a continuum, and that people can pass from the first stage to the second stage if they don't receive help?

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:15 AM   #42
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Does it occur to you that some people don't want help, because the gratification feels so good, and they have so little concern for other human beings, that the better outcome to them is to find ways to gratify themselves and avoid any consequences that would usually accompany that type of gratification?

Or is every piece of shit in this world somebody who you feel sympathy for.

Except me, of course. Somehow I am actually, in your estimation, the worst person in the world, and beyond redemption.

Correct?

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:42 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
Does it occur to you that some people don't want help, because the gratification feels so good, and they have so little concern for other human beings, that the better outcome to them is to find ways to gratify themselves and avoid any consequences that would usually accompany that type of gratification?
[/quote]

Yes, absolutely these people exist. But you're not interested in finding out which ones they are. You're not interested in trying to stop good people from becoming those people, because you want desperately in your heart to believe that some people are just evil and bad and taking the time to make sure that you don't accidentally feed some kids trying to change into the woodchipper with the evil ones because it's too much work, which leads me to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
Or is every piece of shit in this world somebody who you feel sympathy for.

Except me, of course. Somehow I am actually, in your estimation, the worst person in the world, and beyond redemption.

Correct?
I don't think you're the worst person in the world. The worst person on this board, certainly, but not the worst person in the world. And I don't believe that you're beyond redemption, and actually if you've been paying attention you'd have noticed that I for the large part believe that with the exception of a small percentage of violent offenders, nobody is beyond redemption.

The reason, Vix, that I go so hard in on you is that you clearly have every piece of the toolset required to actually be a decent, empathetic, good person, but you flatly refuse to. I'm not going to name names but there are people on this board too stupid to comprehend viewpoints beyond their own who are doomed to be ignorant forever, and there are people on this board who are very smart but are so completely poisoned by irony and disaffection that they can't bring themselves to engage with the notion of honest, vulnerable empathy.

But you? You're smart, and you ostensibly care about being right and doing good in the world, and yet you choose to gratify yourself with the feeling of righteousness that is enabled in you by choosing to believe, in the face of the logical and empathetic faculties you've displayed a firm grip on, that some people are just born evil and incurable and should be thrown in a bin because their existence is irredeemably broken. And you have the capacity to care more about doing what is right than doing what gratifies you, but you would rather do what is gratifying because it feels good. You're worse than a moron, or a person who is cold. You're a coward.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:55 AM   #44
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I think in some ways, you're talking to yourself. Because I think you find it gratifying to believe that everyone is fundamentally good and people who are behaving badly probably need help.

I don't believe that anyone is born evil.

I certainly believe that an 18 year old who struggles with sexual attraction to children should receive help before they end up in the chipper.

I'm just a cynic - I don't think it will help. I think part of toxic masculinity is a sense of entitlement to sexual preferences and sexual satisfaction, that is insidious and chronic and nearly impossible to change. And I think the market for sex dolls modelled to look like children is more a symptom of that entitlement than of a small group of mentally ill people who with help, can change.

I don't think they want to change. Maybe I've just been around more horrible pieces of shit than you, I dunno.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:57 AM   #45
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I think you find it gratifying also, to make a lot of assumptions about who I am, and what motivates me.

I know I am like that about ******, who definitely is the worst person on this board. Everybody needs a scapegoat.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:04 AM   #46
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yo Labelle, I see you. You couldn't resist to click in this tempting thread title, either. busted!

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:24 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
I think in some ways, you're talking to yourself. Because I think you find it gratifying to believe that everyone is fundamentally good and people who are behaving badly probably need help.
oh yeah cause learning to empathise with and feel an abstract love for the countless people who've hurt me or taken advantage of me over the years is super easy and extremely gratifying and definitely not way more work than the alternative. It's just a constant sunday drive with the roof down is trying to understand the person who tried to kill me at age 5 rather than just feel good about their horrific violent death. Just. So. Gratifying.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:10 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by noyen View Post
when I was a teenager like 30 years ago I posed the argument online somewhere that while these things are disgusting, they can be used to keep men from fucking actual children. it's kinda like of they're going to want to do it, but it's illegal to, the alternative here isnt so bad. let people fuck a stuffed horse or a melon. stick that fucked up dick in a pile of warm shit as long as it's not a child. I got a lot of shit for making the argument at the time but I think these fucked up things can be turned to quell the crreepy fucked throbbing purple old knobs away from actual people. make our laws harsher and throw people in a wood chipper and make these dollars legal and then they're also flagged but the government and watched by the NSA overlords. Jonathan Monte MICROPENIS penismile lds meat sald.
There is a big debate in the psych community about this. But the general consensus based on regular behavioral patters - the things tend to escalate - is that it's probably not a good idea. For example, substance abuse tends to escalate, having multiple unsafe sex partners tends to be come more frequent, self harm tends to get worse and worse, rapists tend to become more and more sadistic and in some cases escalate to murder, etc. That's why simulated child porn is illegal (in the USA).

This could be incorrect but it's hard to study because the only people they can study are sex offenders who invariably HAVE escalated since they actually hurt a child to be in trouble in the first place. I'm sure there are people out there in both camps but I tend to agree with the consensus opinion.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:16 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
Would love to see sources for all the stuff you’re claiming about pedophilia.

What constitutes acting on pedophilic ideation? Going to the beach or swimming pool to take photos, sharing photos that someone else took? Sharing photos of abuse?

I find it hard to believe that all the men involved in the underage sex industry around the world are just poor men who have been abused themselves.

Lots of people are abused. Hardly any of them go on to get kicks out of watching children being victimised by adults or participating in that victimisation.
Most people don't end up like this but it's not like they chose how to react to their abuse, just like we didn't choose to get PTSD and people don't choose to get personality disorders or have suicidal ideation etc etc

It is compassionate to try to help pedophiles - not people who have actually participate in abuse, but people with ideation - to figure out how to calm or get rid of urges and to have meaningful adult relationships. They haven't done anything wrong.

I've said this before but imagine you're a pre-teen going through puberty. You know you're attracted to young children. You know it's wrong. You know you can never, ever act on your urges and you're not attracted to adults so you'll never get married or have enjoyable sex in your entire life. You didn't choose it, just like most other kids didn't choose to be attracted to age-appropriate people. Isn't that really shitty for the person? Don't they deserve help to deal with all of this?

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:19 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Sonic Johnny View Post
You're actually not happy to be wrong about this. Being wrong about this involves acknowledging that the people who perpetrate these awful behaviours aren't inhuman monsters, people innately different to your or I in any significant way, but rather that they're regular people engaging in evil behaviour as a result of any one of a number of conditionings that caused them to develop abnormally. Again, these are not excuses, they are reasons. But denying the obvious factors around these crimes that can be leveraged to identify and treat these individuals before they offend, thus protecting potential victims and helping alleviate the cycle because it makes you uncomfortable to humanise the perpetrators is plain old selfish privileged bullshit.
100% agree

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:22 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Sonic Johnny View Post
I suffer from a combination of multiple severe mental illnesses stemming from PTSD that manifest in many different ways, one of which is unwanted intrusive thoughts of the violent persuasion. I have never once been violent to ANYONE in my life, but every time those thoughts appear, and it's maybe 20-50 times A DAY, I am flooded with fear and guilt and disgust and self-loathing. Even though i've resisted them, I still hate myself as much as if I had acted on them all, because these horrific thoughts came from inside me. I am slowly unlearning this response, but it has accounted for a significant part of my self-harm throughout the years. Even with the support of mental health professionals and an incredibly supportive family, I didn't feel comfortable telling anybody that this was the case up until maybe six months ago.

For two decades I carried this all on my own, because I was convinced that even my own mother would stop loving me if she knew. I came extremely close to killing myself on multiple occasions because I felt that these thoughts were a manifestation of a fundamental evil at the core of my being. I understand that bog standard violence and sexual abuse of minors are worlds apart in terms of extremity, but my own lived experience with having horrible compulsions has led me to wonder how many good people suffered silently and killed themselves because of the attitude that just having these thoughts makes you too dangerous to be kept alive and the feeling that they would be persecuted for asking for help.
Sorry you deal with this man. Glad you are getting help and that you can intellectually understand it isn't your fault. I hope you really believe it with your entire being eventually. I can relate, not to the violent urges but with my problems with relationships, how my inability to have them means I'm a terrible person, that no one would ever want to be my friend/partner, etc

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:55 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by reprise85 View Post
Most people don't end up like this but it's not like they chose how to react to their abuse, just like we didn't choose to get PTSD and people don't choose to get personality disorders or have suicidal ideation etc etc

It is compassionate to try to help pedophiles - not people who have actually participate in abuse, but people with ideation - to figure out how to calm or get rid of urges and to have meaningful adult relationships. They haven't done anything wrong.

I've said this before but imagine you're a pre-teen going through puberty. You know you're attracted to young children. You know it's wrong. You know you can never, ever act on your urges and you're not attracted to adults so you'll never get married or have enjoyable sex in your entire life. You didn't choose it, just like most other kids didn't choose to be attracted to age-appropriate people. Isn't that really shitty for the person? Don't they deserve help to deal with all of this?
I think it’s compassionate to try and help those with ideation, I’m just skeptical about whether it would work.

But this thread was about the dolls. If you are ordering a doll, does that take you beyond ideation? Hasn’t that now become behavioural?

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:58 AM   #53
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The example of toxic masculinity in this thread is having desires that are known to the male to be antisocial because the fulfilment of those desires would cause harm to another human being, but choosing to still indulge those desires and gain pleasure and gratification from them, empowered by a sense of entitlement to that gratification. That’s what these dolls are about, to me.

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:29 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by pavementtune View Post
yo Labelle, I see you. You couldn't resist to click in this tempting thread title, either. busted!
Oh no, I've been called out!

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:33 PM   #55
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SJ regardless of your opinion on this and whatever personal problems, your attitude towards argument is obnoxious, arrogant and childish. Keep writing pathos fueled essays worded like a Lincoln speech and perhaps nobody will notice that you essentially conduct yourself like a second grader. Exiting the conversation indeed, "kid"

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 04:32 PM   #56
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Nuthin' personnel, kid

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:09 PM   #57
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I give up the jpeg won't embed

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:11 PM   #58
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it's like I don't even know the internet anymore

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:12 PM   #59
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https://consequenceofsound.files.wor...eaks.gif?w=806

KID? KID?

I'LL SHOW YOU KID, YOU STUPID MAGIC MOTHERFUCKER

 
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:41 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
I think it’s compassionate to try and help those with ideation, I’m just skeptical about whether it would work.

But this thread was about the dolls. If you are ordering a doll, does that take you beyond ideation? Hasn’t that now become behavioural?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
The example of toxic masculinity in this thread is having desires that are known to the male to be antisocial because the fulfilment of those desires would cause harm to another human being, but choosing to still indulge those desires and gain pleasure and gratification from them, empowered by a sense of entitlement to that gratification. That’s what these dolls are about, to me.
Yes I think it does take it beyond ideation. But I wouldn't put it on the same level as actually hurting a kid. But it's a bad fuckin' sign and I wouldn't be surprised if they are beyond redemption at that point. I don't know. But I'd rather try as long as they haven't hurt a kid yet

 
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