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Old 10-06-2017, 11:38 AM   #61
FoolofaTook
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Yeah liam isn't bi 4 sure. closeminded twerp.

noel on the other hand...

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 12:41 PM   #62
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This is anecdotal and probably wrong, but the most compassionate people I know are all bi. They also tend to be very smart. It seems like a pattern. Like everyone I've talked to in the mental health field about it are bi, or I see it incidentally. Like both my therapist and psychiatrist are bi. My therapist I know because she is divorced and has talked about her new partner as 'she'. My psychiatrist is really open about it on his facebook page (we aren't friends on FB but I've seen it). Like I'm probably just seeing this because I myself am bi, but it does seem like a pattern. Like you could guess their orientation just by how open minded they are in general
It's funny but I genuinely felt the exact same.

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I only came out at 32. I was writing an e-mail to a friend who at the time was 23, and I referred to her as a straight person (because when we first met a couple of years before, she said she was) - but knowing her as I knew her then, it felt a bit wrong to assign that word to her. So I started writing a convoluted e-mail to ask her if she was bi, and by the end of it I had come out too (both to her and to myself). She had gone through the same thing except at a much earlier age than me.

I have been happy. I'm not going to say there are no strange attitudes towards bi people in parts of the LGBT community, because there are. But people can be more welcoming than you think. There's a long way to go, but awareness of bi issues is higher now than even five years ago too. I'm friends with gay men who would say pretty terrible things about bi people 10 years ago, and they now ask themselves why they did that. They have bi friends, and they have relationships with bi people, and they know we aren't just fake gay or fake straight.

Lots of bi people feel they aren't bi enough, or that they don't count because they haven't been with a same sex partner, or that they are bi but they have no claim over the word because they don't "live" it. There are a lot of us in monogamous straight relationships. Again, you didn't miss the boat - you are on the very same boat as most of us.
That's sort of how it came about, where I was talking to old friends and felt comfortable joking about same sex encounters I had in the past, and it felt great to just be like "Yeah I've done that and had those experiences and those were fun times I don't need to hide from myself or anyone else anymore." I told my wife about it very early when we were dating, but we're obviously super close, but it was nice to be open about it with friends rather than keep hiding it.

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 12:43 PM   #63
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But it still feels like I'd be bandwagoning to start tying myself to the LGBTQ community now that it's socially more acceptable.

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 01:56 PM   #64
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Mostly this, but the word also has non-assimilationist undertones. I'd say being queer means being outside heternormative culture, and thinking that the way forward isn't about being accepted into the mainstream. It's about questioning the idea that we should be getting married and organizing our lives around straight relationship models. It's about questioning what it means to love someone, and what it means to have a family, and finding alternative ways to structure your life other than a very private and isolating notion of couplehood.

You could say that this has nothing to do with being gay or straight, and in a sense this is true. There are gay people who are very traditional in every other aspect of their lives. There are straight people who aren't. But it's impossible to deny that historically, queer people have engaged with those questions - and created a culture around them - to a much greater extent than straight people have.
This is really fascinating to me. Out of curiosity, at what point does it stop being ok (or accurate) to use the term queer to label oneself? For instance, I'm pretty against what I see as mostly constraining and oppressive models of families and couplehood (i.e. a family must have two "correctly" gendered parents, a couple must be exclusive to one another, etc etc). I've done the whole ethical polyamory thing and honestly it made me so much more satisfied than relationships with traditional boundaries I have questioned if there is an aspect to it that is closer to a sexual orientation than a mere preference.

At the same time it would seem incredibly appropriative for someone like me with these attitudes and experiences to use that label simply because I ideologically feel opposed to normative models of love and sex, right?

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:20 PM   #65
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This is really fascinating to me. Out of curiosity, at what point does it stop being ok (or accurate) to use the term queer to label oneself? For instance, I'm pretty against what I see as mostly constraining and oppressive models of families and couplehood (i.e. a family must have two "correctly" gendered parents, a couple must be exclusive to one another, etc etc).

How is a man and woman, with the ability to reproduce naturally, constraining and oppressive models of a family?

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:21 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
This is really fascinating to me. Out of curiosity, at what point does it stop being ok (or accurate) to use the term queer to label oneself? For instance, I'm pretty against what I see as mostly constraining and oppressive models of families and couplehood (i.e. a family must have two "correctly" gendered parents, a couple must be exclusive to one another, etc etc). I've done the whole ethical polyamory thing and honestly it made me so much more satisfied than relationships with traditional boundaries I have questioned if there is an aspect to it that is closer to a sexual orientation than a mere preference.

At the same time it would seem incredibly appropriative for someone like me with these attitudes and experiences to use that label simply because I ideologically feel opposed to normative models of love and sex, right?
I think identifying as queer is limited to LGBT people. I can't see how to detach the term from LGBT history. Poly or kinky* people who identify as queer without being LGBT aren't unheard of, but this is generally controversial. Personally, if someone is cis/straight but eschews heteronormativity, I wouldn't call them queer, but I wouldn't object to them living in my dream queer commune either. :P

Different queer people have different views on the word as well. I think quite a few people identify as queer because they feel that the words gay, lesbian, bi, trans, etc. don't quite fit them - they feel reality is more complex than those categories. I feel a bit differently. I do think reality is more complex, and I don't feel cis and bi describe me perfectly either (I'm not gender-conforming in many senses; the exact ways I'm attracted to different genders aren't a mirror image of each other). But I also feel that if I only described myself as queer, that would be too vague. It'd make many of my experiences invisible instead of honoring their specificities. So I generally identify as bi AND queer. Bi because I'm also attracted to genders other than my own, and queer as a personal/political stance.



* Information technology. Seriously though, I said "poly or kinky", but I'm not saying both things are related - I myself am poly but not kinky. It's just that I've seen both poly and kinky people do that.

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:24 PM   #67
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How is a man and woman, with the ability to reproduce naturally, constraining and oppressive models of a family?
Are you an SJW, Feminist, Post Modernist, Bolshevik or Queer? I need to see your ID or I'm going to have to ask you to leave.

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:40 PM   #68
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that guy is a straight up nazi sympathizer, NOT who this thread is for.

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:43 PM   #69
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This is anecdotal and probably wrong, but the most compassionate people I know are all bi. They also tend to be very smart. It seems like a pattern. Like everyone I've talked to in the mental health field about it are bi, or I see it incidentally. Like both my therapist and psychiatrist are bi. My therapist I know because she is divorced and has talked about her new partner as 'she'. My psychiatrist is really open about it on his facebook page (we aren't friends on FB but I've seen it). Like I'm probably just seeing this because I myself am bi, but it does seem like a pattern. Like you could guess their orientation just by how open minded they are in general
Yeah, it's probably just confirmation bias, but the three people I'm closest to are all bi. I think the reason I feel fond of them is more related to the way they think of friendships, and relationships, and so on, though. I'm not sure how exactly being bi plays into that, but I just really like people who can navigate their affections without a sense of entitlement, and who care more about people than the role they want them to play in their lives.

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:44 PM   #70
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that guy is a straight up nazi sympathizer, NOT who this thread is for.
Yeah, I know who TOC is, I was just politely telling him to sod off.

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 07:05 PM   #71
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I figured you knew I just wanted to call him a nazi sympathizer

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:22 PM   #72
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i guess id be considered queer but wouldnt really want to label myself

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:23 PM   #73
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Because rgb is a child


Thank god dumbasses like him are not reproducing.
look not all of us can be nazi dads who can't decide if they are trolling or serious about white supremacy.

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:31 PM   #74
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I think identifying as queer is limited to LGBT people. I can't see how to detach the term from LGBT history. Poly or kinky* people who identify as queer without being LGBT aren't unheard of, but this is generally controversial. Personally, if someone is cis/straight but eschews heteronormativity, I wouldn't call them queer, but I wouldn't object to them living in my dream queer commune either. :P

Different queer people have different views on the word as well. I think quite a few people identify as queer because they feel that the words gay, lesbian, bi, trans, etc. don't quite fit them - they feel reality is more complex than those categories. I feel a bit differently. I do think reality is more complex, and I don't feel cis and bi describe me perfectly either (I'm not gender-conforming in many senses; the exact ways I'm attracted to different genders aren't a mirror image of each other). But I also feel that if I only described myself as queer, that would be too vague. It'd make many of my experiences invisible instead of honoring their specificities. So I generally identify as bi AND queer. Bi because I'm also attracted to genders other than my own, and queer as a personal/political stance.



* Information technology. Seriously though, I said "poly or kinky", but I'm not saying both things are related - I myself am poly but not kinky. It's just that I've seen both poly and kinky people do that.
this kind of talk makes me nuts though how is a real outsider supposed to relate to a bunch of people who have just excluded you because queer means this and bi means that its too breakbeat folk trance level of subdivisioning it makes it harder to interact i think when you must follow some norm of the deviance in order to be deviant. i know these terms are supposed to help people identify which i guess is why the Q is now sometimes seen in appearances of LGBT acronym drops. anyway, not really adding anything other than i also wanted to add i practice kink.wiccan kink.

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:40 PM   #75
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polymammary

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:09 PM   #76
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It might not fit in this thread but how does anyone feel about Jordan Peterson?

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:12 PM   #77
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might not be pertinent to this thread but i agree with how he says that language is a social negotiation and cannot be forced..

 
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:27 PM   #78
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Anything else?

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 05:57 AM   #79
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this kind of talk makes me nuts though how is a real outsider supposed to relate to a bunch of people who have just excluded you because queer means this and bi means that its too breakbeat folk trance level of subdivisioning it makes it harder to interact i think when you must follow some norm of the deviance in order to be deviant. i know these terms are supposed to help people identify which i guess is why the Q is now sometimes seen in appearances of LGBT acronym drops. anyway, not really adding anything other than i also wanted to add i practice kink.wiccan kink.
I think my answer was all over the place. Not a particularly good one.

I think the use of "queer" can be complicated because it's a slur against lgbt people that was reclaimed by lgbt people - I felt uncomfortable calling myself queer for ages even though I felt a strong affinity to it. It was only after I started exploring the fact that I was bi that I stopped worrying I was appropriating the word. It's probably some internalized prejudice, I don't know. It's weird to feel close to an idea and constantly question whether you belong.

So I think you're right that less gatekeeping is generally a good thing. As far as I'm concerned, if you're genuinely uncomfortable with the status quo, if you're seriously questioning how gender is done or how relationships are done, you are welcome under the queer umbrella, even if you are mostly cis or straight. It doesn't mean you won't find any resistance from anyone (because you will), but I guess that's the nature of social groups.

I wouldn't even attribute meanness to some forms of gatekeeping, just fear and self-preservation. I admit I feel a bit suspicious about polyamory being considered queer, even though I am poly, and I feel my polyamory is very much a part of my queerness. There are so many ways to be poly, and some of them are very traditional in every aspect other than the number of partners you have (not unlike conservative, assimilated, suburban married gay couples who are "normal" otherwise). Some of them can be quite sexist too. But I do feel other ways of doing polyamory count as queer.

But then again, who gets to decide that? I don't trust myself as gatekeeper. I don't think anyone should trust themselves. So we are left with self-identification, and with being generous when approaching other people, and treating them as people. It's not always an easy thing to do when you are an embattled minority, but it's what should be done.

Last edited by Rairun : 10-07-2017 at 06:02 AM.

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:06 AM   #80
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I know you're just being flippant, but it's funny how you finished by telling us to get a job. I think there's a continuity there between heteronormativity, and the idea of love and family as a private experience between two people and their offspring, and the creation of these self-contained productive units that make money for rich people. I'm not saying that it's all a big conspiracy, but the nuclear family does sit perfectly within this capitalist hellhole.

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:22 AM   #81
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It might not fit in this thread but how does anyone feel about Jordan Peterson?
He is a piece of shit. I would refer to him as "Alt Lite"

He is repackaging decades old anti liberal anti feminist anti black vitriol into a form that is easier for "centrists" to accept. The right wing was ranting about post Modernism 30 years ago.

Most of his ranting is effectively straw man arguments.

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:13 AM   #82
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As long as he doesn't take a knee during the anthem I support him!

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:25 AM   #83
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bigots are so predictable. you criticize them and they reply by saying you hate free speech. I support free speech. I support everyone's right to tell other people that they are shit and their ideas are shit.

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Old 10-07-2017, 09:48 AM   #84
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As long as he doesn't take a knee during the anthem I support him!
It's the only thing some football fans respect! It could trigger them if you don't stand for the anthem! They came to watch wifebeaters give each other concussions, not to think about disadvantages they don't personally face!

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:51 AM   #85
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nobody is forcing them to be a football player if they don't like it there is the door no reason to show disrespect towards a national symbol this is the country you live in the country that has given you everything if you don't like it go back where you came from

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:51 AM   #86
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simple

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:52 AM   #87
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✔️ SJWs
✔️ Feminists
❌ Post-modernists
❌ Bolsheviks
✔️ Queers

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:58 AM   #88
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simple
Agreed. If any coloured people don't like the way they feel like they are treated by the authorities in America, they should feel free to move back to whichever country they came from that American authorities fucked up through neoliberalism and regime change.

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:33 AM   #89
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If you don't masturbate during the anthem then you're free to leave the greatest country in the world.

 
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:37 PM   #90
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BTW I am sorry if what I said came off in a weird or offensive way, I know at least a few people interpreted my question about queerness as pretty ignorant and I blame my poor articulation.

I have no problem with dating a queer person and I don't feel strange about it at all. I know she is interested in me and it is explicitly a date so I wasn't questioning anything like that. I literally just meant that I am ignorant about what the word means and was seeking serious answers to educate myself.

 
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