Is Billy Destined To Slip Into The Ass Crack Of Obscurity?

[Candy Cane]

Every time I read or hear 'top 100 songwriters ever' lists from big magazines, radio, online or whatever, there's never a spot for Billy. If there's a comment section, there's no mention of Billy from the readers. There's never an outrage or upset that Billy isn't included from anyone. It's never regarded as a glaring omission or a basis for an argument.

WHAT IS GOING ON PEOPLE!?

The rock and roll hall of fame don't seem that interested in Smashing Pumpkins. They'd rather crush Billy's grapes in a vice-like grip and hear him cry like a mercury tree. There's a separate songwriting hall of fame which doesn't have the hairless maestro on its books and doesn't seem interested in rectifying this egregious error.

Usually when I read or hear 'top 100 rock bands ever' rankings there's rarely a mention of the Pumpkins and what they did back in the nineties; how they were an essential part of the landscape of that era; a colossus of the revolution and a lynch pin of the overthrow of posing hair metal bands; how they stood out with their unique sound midst the 'grunge', unwashed jeans, greasy hair, dirty flannel and Britneys of this world; how they were an exciting staple of generation X; how they had more scope, skill and variation than most mainstream bands of that decade.

'100 best ever songs' lists never seem to feature the likes of BWBW, Disarm, Cherub Rock, Bugg Superstar or any of the compilation of classics that Sir Corgan penned back in his prime. It's like the golden age of his startling songwriting genius never happened.

Where is the library of books detailing the Pumpkins catalogue and recording process? Where are the tomes preserving his methods for future generations of the disenchanted, unfashionable romantics? Where are the posters of Billy that should be hanging on every teenager's wall? Why isn't he immortalized in murals, cast in stone and legendary like Ian Curtis, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix and company? Why isn't he loved, cherished and dedicated tributes!?

I've read lots of interviews with musicians and I've checked celebrities desert island discs etc. and hardly anyone ever mentions Billy as a favorite, influence or icon; nor picks a Pumpkins album as their lonely castaway choice. Covers of Pumpkins classics don't seem to be as ubiquitous or numerous as covers of the likes of Nirvana, just to use one example.

WHY ISN'T BILLY AS HIGHLY REGARDED AS KIRK COBAINS!?

Billy was right when he described himself and Kirk as the two top scribes of the nineties, yet he doesn't seem to get any credit in this culture. His inferior peers Dave Grohl, Marilyn Manson and Billie Joe Armstrong-three stooges who don't have Billy's musical talent between them, are arguably bigger names nowadays.

Billy is a stellar musician; Butch Vig says he plays bass better than D'arcy and his guitar licks kick James Iha's ass to the curb. He is a superchrist of musicianship, if you will.

So the question, for all those dedicated (and possibly bored) Pumpkinheads who have read this far, is why isn't Billy universally or widely considered one of the greatest songwriters of his era-nay, one of the elite scribes of ANY ERA-up there with Lennon, McCartney, Dylan, Van Zandt, Cash, Young, Cobain, Dolly Parton, Porter, Leadbelly, Simon, Prince, Jackson, John, Nelson, Bolan, Tupac and any other of the usual suspects you may care to mention?

I have posted a poll and listed all the possibilities of why William Patrick the third of Corgan is not given the respect he is due.

I'm glad I got that off my chest.

Yours,
Candy Cane.

P.S.When I peruse lists of the 'top 100 neurotic, bald, douche bag egomaniacs of the nineties who wear weird dresses, anally probe Courtney Love and sing like fourteen year old girls with asthma' I will kill myself if Billy does not come top of the pyramid-just ahead of Moby.

[smashingjj]

ok

[Corgan's Bluff]

Billy also isn't listed at the best 100 guitarists from the Rolling Stone magazine, voted by musicians themselves:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...arists-153675/

[wHATcOLOR]

can we change the poll such that we can select multiple options?

[Slurpee]

I think if rock hadn’t “died” he would have influenced enough extremely popular or critically acclaimed acts to get this recognition. With rock fading from pop mainstream, Billy’s only hope was to keep touring through the 2000’s cranking out foo-fighters-style radio hits. Think Zwan as a pumpkins album and the poppiest songs he wrote for the whole project billed as their return to the mainstream. In that timeline, Billy is a rock great and one of the last guitar heroes.

So, I guess my pick is, “never break up and keep selling out.”

Pearl Jam, Green Day, Foo Fighters all followed this model. Hell even Weezer kept it together long enough.

[Oklahoma Sexual]

I get nothing from his music anymore. I think I outgrew the schtick. I do wish him success with wrestling because for whatever reason his heart is in it.

[NovaFritz]

Originally Posted by Candy Cane

P.S.When I peruse lists of the 'top 100 neurotic, bald, douche bag egomaniacs of the nineties who wear weird dresses, anally probe Courtney Love and sing like fourteen year old girls with asthma' I will kill myself if Billy does not come top of the pyramid-just ahead of Moby.

jesus

[slayed23]

This is why I give him a pass for being an ass to people at times. He is one of the most underrated musicians of all time and I will debate that with anyone. He deserved to be regarded as one of the best guitarists and songwriters. And to be omitted is fucking stupid. I don't care if the list is subjective, it's a slap in his face. If it was me, I would be pissed off about it too. So would you *insert random netphoria person that hates Billy now*.

Being a jerk to people is irrelevant in this discussion. Either you are great at what you do, or you are not. Ty Cobb didn't get magically omitted from the baseball HOF even though he was a notorious racist. And either should the Smashing Pumpkins for Billy going on the Alex Jones show or whatever else you might add because for the 90s era, they were great. To not be even nominated in the first 2 years is another slap in his face. So he has a right to be pissed off about it.

[FoolofaTook]

[Candy Cane]

Originally Posted by wHATcOLOR

can we change the poll such that we can select multiple options?

I meant to give multiple options and make the votes public but in my keyboard fingering fury I fucked up, sorry.

Originally Posted by slayed23

This is why I give him a pass for being an ass to people at times. He is one of the most underrated musicians of all time and I will debate that with anyone. He deserved to be regarded as one of the best guitarists and songwriters. And to be omitted is fucking stupid. I don't care if the list is subjective, it's a slap in his face. If it was me, I would be pissed off about it too. So would you *insert random netphoria person that hates Billy now*.

Being a jerk to people is irrelevant in this discussion. Either you are great at what you do, or you are not. Ty Cobb didn't get magically omitted from the baseball HOF even though he was a notorious racist.

Excellent points, although I will point out that Chris Benoit got whitewashed from wrestling history for murdering his wife and kid. Let's hope Billy doesn't go down that route!

I recently read Rolling Stone's list of 100 greatest songwriters and the alternative response on another prominent website of a 100 greatest songwriters that Rolling Stone omitted and surprise surprise! Corgan didn't make the cut there either. It's almost like his glorious heyday never happened. Where are the 25 page spreads in Kerrang magazine? Where are the abundance of articles ranking Pumpkins songs and albums? Why do less talented musicians like Rob Zombie and Marilyn Manson seem to get more coverage?

Outside of Chicago and the hardcore Pumpkins fan-base he's irrelevant. He isn't widely considered a guitar God, an ingenious scribe, a skillful wordsmith or a singer of some standing. His talent with vocals and lyrics may be questionable but he deserves to be recognized as a serious guitarist and a superb song-smith. I have a book of great guitarists; Jerry Cantrell, Matt Bellamy and Kirk Cobains are in there but there isn't a single mention of the Geek USA shredder.

If Billy didn't have a big mouth and wasn't appearing on Howard Stern and Alex Jones and a two-bit rag website like Alternative Nation didn't hang on his every syllable for click-bait he would fade into complete, desolate abandon. He needed to reform and play old hits just so no one forgot who he was. He needed to change his name back from William Patrick cause the hip-hop inspired millennial youth was all like: " who da funk is this dude yo. Is dit Elton John?"

Go to an isolated crow-invaded rural town of oblivious Mormons or cloistered Amish pancake munchers and I guarantee you they'll know the great American names of Buddy Holly, Richie Valens and The Big Bopper.

Go to the Amazon rain forest, contact a closeted tribe and, in between dodging the poisonous arrows and vitriolic gibberish that they callously spew in your direction, ask them if the great American tunes of James Brown, Barry White and Neil Diamond have ever flown dart-like into the deep caverns of their warrior ears. They will then nod knowingly and treat you as a long-lost ally on Earth-at least until they contact the flu and their immune system breaks down resulting in their complete extinction due to your selfish rich man's folly.

Then-then my friend, and here's the real tester,-go to your local McDonalds and ask the acned-faced virginal teen or the over-worked world-weary single mother of seven children who has suffered domestic abuse at the hands of her child-molesting husband who is now in a penitentiary, whether they have ever heard the impeccable songsmithery of the one and only Sir Wiliam Patrick the third of Corgan-whether they have ever whetted their appetite on the prize cuts of Mellon Collie And The Sadness Of Infinity-whether indeed they have ever witnessed a swan topple to the earth gracefully???

Then try not to choke on your disgusting grease-immersed hamburger-which will probably result in cardiac arrest in your early forties- as they shake their heads, look blankly at you as though you have spoken in an alien tongue and respond sluggishly: "Would you like some mayonnaise with that?" MAYONNAISE!? Oh the irony! If only you knew knackered housewife! If only you knew spotty youth! I think jesus said it best:

"Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do."

Jesus is the sun.


At this rate the man who wrote Tonight Tonight will be largely forgotten in 25 years time. In fifty years time kids will look at his stale bird-shit stained one-arm vandalized statue outside Chicago Cubs stadium and not know that a wise man once stood beneath those darkest eaves and walked that hallowed turf. They will ask their parents who the statue resembles. Their parents will be too busy buying hot-dogs from a local vendor. The kid will forget to ask again. The sun will set and the Cubs will lose.


"I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is William Patrick Corgan, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

PERHAPS WHAT BILLY NEEDS IS A GIMMICK OR NICKNAME?

Bowie-Ziggy
Madonna-Queen of pop
Prince-The purple one
Michael Jackson-The king of pop
Bruce Springsteen-The boss
Courtney Love-Rock whore
Varg Vikernes-Murdering bastard
Ozzy Osbourne-Prince Of Darkness
Marilyn Manson-Shock Rocker

Billy Corgan-any ideas?

Ponder that one Pumpkinheads.

[FoolofaTook]

Originally Posted by Candy Cane

Bowie-Ziggy
Madonna-Queen of pop
Prince-The purple one
Michael Jackson-The king of pop
Bruce Springsteen-The boss
Courtney Love-Rock whore
Varg Vikernes-Murdering bastard
Ozzy Osbourne-Prince Of Darkness
Marilyn Manson-Shock Rocker

Your list is missing: Wata - Drone Goddess

[Mals Marola]

Billy has a nickname & it rhymes with "walled horde"

[FoolofaTook]

sprawled fjord?

[Mals Marola]

[FoolofaTook]

no wait i got it! trolled board! ha!

[Mals Marola]

you pronounce troll "trawl" ?

[Corgan's Bluff]

Originally Posted by Candy Cane

PERHAPS WHAT BILLY NEEDS IS A GIMMICK OR NICKNAME?

Bowie-Ziggy
Madonna-Queen of pop
Prince-The purple one
Michael Jackson-The king of pop
Bruce Springsteen-The boss
Courtney Love-Rock whore
Varg Vikernes-Murdering bastard
Ozzy Osbourne-Prince Of Darkness
Marilyn Manson-Shock Rocker

Billy Corgan-any ideas?

Ponder that one Pumpkinheads.

Billy Corgan - ZERO

[FoolofaTook]

Originally Posted by Mals Marola

you pronounce troll "trawl" ?

close enough. no need to split pubes.

[Mals Marola]

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by slayed23

This is why I give him a pass for being an ass to people at times. He is one of the most underrated musicians of all time and I will debate that with anyone. He deserved to be regarded as one of the best guitarists and songwriters. And to be omitted is fucking stupid. I don't care if the list is subjective, it's a slap in his face. If it was me, I would be pissed off about it too. So would you *insert random netphoria person that hates Billy now*.

Being a jerk to people is irrelevant in this discussion. Either you are great at what you do, or you are not. Ty Cobb didn't get magically omitted from the baseball HOF even though he was a notorious racist. And either should the Smashing Pumpkins for Billy going on the Alex Jones show or whatever else you might add because for the 90s era, they were great. To not be even nominated in the first 2 years is another slap in his face. So he has a right to be pissed off about it.

oh NO!!

[RAWK]

I really believe that post-2000 pumpkins killed it for critics. I personally believe Billy's accomplishments pre-2000 deserve a HOF induction (in a bubble), but his legacy is so heavily scarred now. If he would have stopped at Adore or Machina, he would be in now.

[Mals Marola]

i feel like critical/casual fan reception toward at least some of the post-2000 output has actually been way kinder to Corg than the majority of the hardcore fanbase (Sad Machine types excluded)

Oceania for example seemed to be taken to reeeeally kindly by people who weren't die-hards but cared enough to at least give it a listen. and i mean fuck, if Guns n Roses are acknowledged in any of these accolades it is kinda hard to justify the Pumpkins' absence - even Billy is less of an asshole & has a better batting average than Axl Rose

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by Mals Marola

i feel like critical/casual fan reception toward at least some of the post-2000 output has actually been way kinder to Corg than the majority of the hardcore fanbase (Sad Machine types excluded)

Oceania for example seemed to be taken to reeeeally kindly by people who weren't die-hards but cared enough to at least give it a listen. and i mean fuck, if Guns n Roses are acknowledged in any of these accolades it is kinda hard to justify the Pumpkins' absence - even Billy is less of an asshole & has a better batting average than Axl Rose

GnR put out an iconic, timeless album that is beloved by people no matter what genre they listen to. I was smoking weed with a bunch of rap-fans who were stoked about the concert last time GnR came to town. There's really no comparison when considering how many landmark songs came from Appetite alone. Siamese Dream is arguably the Pumpkins landmark album and do any of the hits even come close to matching the cultural importance of the singles from Appetite?

Unfortunately, The Pumpkins have had trouble standing the test of time in the pop-culture lexicon. Sure, rock fans will still come out in a good showing for a reunion tour because a lot of the songs are still on alt-rock stations and 90's nostalgia is super hot right now, but for average folks, 1979 is the only song that has really transcended the original movement... And even that isn't exactly unforgettable for the average person.

[pale_princess]

Originally Posted by Candy Cane

PERHAPS WHAT BILLY NEEDS IS A GIMMICK OR NICKNAME?

Bowie-Ziggy
Madonna-Queen of pop
Prince-The purple one
Michael Jackson-The king of pop
Bruce Springsteen-The boss
Courtney Love-Rock whore
Varg Vikernes-Murdering bastard
Ozzy Osbourne-Prince Of Darkness
Marilyn Manson-Shock Rocker

Billy Corgan-any ideas?

Ponder that one Pumpkinheads.

Nobody calls Courtney Love "Rock Wh*re"

[Corgan's Bluff]

She hasn't still slept with Marilyn Mason...


Billy Corgan - Shapeshifter sex

[Corgan's Bluff]

When Pumpkins still ate pumpkins...

[trev]

that looks like watermelon

[Corgan's Bluff]

Kabocha Squash Japanese Pumpkin...

[Mals Marola]

ok, thanks

[Mals Marola]

and sorry fuzzy, if i had any idea the rap-fans you smoke weed with were excited about Guns n Roses coming to town i would have re-thought my position entirely