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06-29-2018, 12:40 PM | #31 |
Socialphobic
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Posts: 11,398
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You don't have to crucify the accused to believe the accuser. You do need to treat the accusation seriously and give the accuser the support they need.
Proving the accusation is the job of the legal professionals, but the person making the accusation needs belief and support. It's not saying the accusations are automatically true, but that you take the weight of their accusation seriously. It's fucking terrifying trying to open up about sexual assault and knowing people will attack you and pile more emotional abuse on top of it. Especially when the power dynamic is this lopsided. It's already insanely difficult for people to come forth with public accusations when they have a similar structural backing to defend themselves (ie famous person accusing another famous person). So I can understand why they'd wish to remain anonymous and I can respect that. Whether the allegations are real or not remains to be seen, and we'll see if more people come forth with similar accusations. |
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06-29-2018, 03:44 PM | #32 |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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06-29-2018, 04:16 PM | #33 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,874
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I think some people interpret "believe victims" as "it is a moral imperative to suspend all skepticism and automatically assume that accusations of this particular crime are true," rather than simply challenging what has been the traditional default stance of thinking accusers are lying and making sure the claims are investigated as thoroughly as any other claim of a serious crime.
I think most people who frame it the former way are anti-feminists misinterpreting the aims of feminism, but I have encountered some fellow progressives who seriously hold that view. My sister once proudly stated how she'll never question any accusations. Even some outlets' media reactions to, say, the UVA scandal vehemently criticized any other outlet that exhibited skepticism, accusing them of being rape apologists. |
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06-29-2018, 05:50 PM | #34 |
BOTTLEG ILLEGAL
Location: I'm faced with so many changes that I just might change my face
Posts: 32,800
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06-29-2018, 06:25 PM | #35 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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perhaps "rape" is the feeling you come away with after paying for an hour and a half of Tool
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06-29-2018, 07:42 PM | #36 |
Socialphobic
Location: we are champions, bathed in the heat of a thousand flame wars in the grim future of the internet there is only netphoria
Posts: 12,467
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What a weird and creepy little man
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06-29-2018, 07:58 PM | #37 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,874
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I'm unaware of the previous rumours. What are they?
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06-29-2018, 08:07 PM | #38 |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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Makes you wonder about Scott Kelly, really.
I mean, it's not like Maynard suddenly had an original thought. |
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06-29-2018, 08:11 PM | #39 |
BOTTLEG ILLEGAL
Location: I'm faced with so many changes that I just might change my face
Posts: 32,800
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i mean that link to the guy defenind maynard says he doesn't rape people he just invites a bunch of young women backstage (but he makes sure they are over 18!!!) and takes his pick of one or two and has sex with them. on every tour stop.
sex drugs rock n roll etc but it's creepy. |
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06-29-2018, 08:31 PM | #40 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,874
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Iif these things transpire exactly as the post describes and it's not just downplaying any coercive or manipulative actions that are actually taking place, I don't see what's morally wrong about him having relations with consenting adults who fetishize his celebrity. Trashy, sure, but it doesn't seem predatory.
Being a "groupie" is stigmatized, but I'm not sure I can judge people for seeking consensual sex with people they perceive as status symbols, so long as they aren't being deceptive about it. |
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06-29-2018, 08:37 PM | #41 |
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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Because to use admiration as a bargaining chip to get easy sex is gross af?
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06-29-2018, 08:40 PM | #42 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: all over the Internet
Posts: 44,548
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Quote:
this is our "news". what's gonna happen to maynard? how many women will come forward? evidently many groupies willingly sought out to fuck the dude. does that matter? |
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06-29-2018, 08:41 PM | #43 | |
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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Quote:
Not to mention taking advantage of a culture that pretty much brainwashes women into thinking their only value lies in providing sexual pleasure to someone. Sure it's getting better, but baby steps. |
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06-29-2018, 08:44 PM | #44 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,874
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Couldn't any possible incentive another person has for having sex with you be framed as a "bargaining chip," in that case? If his partners are interested in him because they are attracted to status or are attracted to people they admire, is it any less consensual than if they were attracted to him for his doughy middle-aged body or award-winning personality? I don't think these partners are too naïve to make informed decisions, assuming they are all adults of functional minds.
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06-29-2018, 08:45 PM | #45 | |
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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Quote:
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06-29-2018, 08:49 PM | #46 |
**************
Location: I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.
Posts: 8,661
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I slept with band members, (no AMA), and yes, I was not only a consenting adult, I was the adult who was pursuing it.
it also happens that you meet 20 year olds with smeared make-up staggering out of tour buses and hotel rooms looking like they'd like to call their mom now. so to make a broad generalisaion that "groupies" must fall into either segment by definition is just completely silly. |
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06-29-2018, 08:50 PM | #47 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: all over the Internet
Posts: 44,548
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girl (labelle), please stop pretending women that age are brainless and incapable of making decisions for better or worse
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06-29-2018, 08:55 PM | #48 | ||
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,874
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Quote:
Like, if somebody told me they would only have a relationship with me if I ate a bowl of fire, assuming this person isn't a parent or long-term partner or another with whom I should expect a relationship from, I think it would be up to me to say, "yeah, no, I will not eat a bowl of fire just so you will pay attention to me." If I eat that bowl of fire, I wasn't forced into doing it. I'm also not sure about how having a system for attaining consensual sex is any less moral than having consensual sex by accident. Quote:
How do we distinguish between a woman exercising her sexual freedom and agency, and a woman being tricked into thinking she wants sexual contact because she's incapable of knowing her own interests? |
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06-29-2018, 09:01 PM | #49 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,874
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Quote:
And the "high of being in the presence of someone they admire" doesn't seem to pass the threshold of being unable to consent, in my opinion. One could argue that disinhibiting cognitive effects of sexual arousal render one unable to consent, in that case. Being excited to have sex, for whatever reason, doesn't mean you can't form the intent and desire to have sex. |
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06-29-2018, 09:03 PM | #50 |
**************
Location: I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.
Posts: 8,661
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I don't think the comparison of concert-attendant/fan x musician and Louis CK works here.
Louis CK had power in the sense that these women were dependent on his good will for their career. if you, not as roadie and not as marketing intern but as concert goer, fuck the drummer you just met - you aren't. there is no professional work place power structure in any sense. |
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06-29-2018, 09:09 PM | #51 | |
Braindead
Location: PROWLING THE BADLANDS
Posts: 17,399
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Quote:
this is, by definition, not judging a situation objectively, but projecting your opinions on it |
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06-29-2018, 09:24 PM | #52 | ||||||
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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Quote:
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No Quote:
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Seriously though, he's stacking the deck in his favor, by saying only people who want to fuck him get to meet him. Can he do it? Sure he can. Am I allowed to think that that is morally objectionable? sure I am. Quote:
A woman exercising her sexual freedom won't cry in the morning. |
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06-29-2018, 09:28 PM | #53 |
Virgo
Posts: 42,781
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WOOOOOOOO
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06-29-2018, 09:29 PM | #54 |
Virgo
Posts: 42,781
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LEARN TO SWIM
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06-29-2018, 09:31 PM | #55 |
**************
Location: I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.
Posts: 8,661
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eh okay, you didn't actually say what you wanted to say then, namely that they can consent while making an informed decision, what you said is that
they make a lousy consenting adult, that bargaining chips are used on them, that they are brainwashed and get self validation out of that encounter. and now that they are more likely to say yes, without taking into account that they just might have other reasons than being brainwashed, having no self worth or being intoxicated by fame to "be more likely to say yes". and you broadly made that generalisation, which is where my problem with this labelling lies. |
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06-29-2018, 09:35 PM | #56 |
Socialphobic
Location: I’ve been trying to move to the Nordic countries for 5 years but the cost is astronomical to become an expatriate
Posts: 14,679
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Labelling, noun; def: To LaBelle
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06-29-2018, 09:42 PM | #57 | |
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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Quote:
Are you gonna disagree that society treats women as sexual meat currency and that many many women have trouble not viewing themselves in that way? Are you gonna disagree that fame, money and admiration can be a huge influence for someone wanting to sleep with someone else? Last edited by LaBelle : 06-29-2018 at 09:48 PM. |
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06-29-2018, 09:47 PM | #58 |
Braindead
Location: PROWLING THE BADLANDS
Posts: 17,399
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lol whatever
no sense could get through to you |
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06-29-2018, 09:52 PM | #59 |
Socialphobic
Location: Away
Posts: 11,398
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06-29-2018, 09:57 PM | #60 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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LaMeanie
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