Recent SP.com articles about Machina..

[machinaii]

Originally Posted by slunken

LEMME THROW THIS INTO THE MIX:

listen the "rock set" songs don't happen at the beginning they take place at "the final concert" (where they all take their places marked with an x"). therefore, not just the "rock songs" happen in the "rock set" (i.e. - it's the actual concert that's played). the "Mystery as Narrative" is split into 4 acts (like a traditional stage play-emphasis on breaking the fourth wall/final act) and this final rock show takes place in act 3. the song saturnine could be repeated to signify the ending of an act. la deux machina, speed kills, and hmm (alt) all take place in act 1, for example.

the chart itself is a good place to look when you're confused but it can't be used as an end-all source because so many of the songs technically apply to so many areas. if you look at any conceptual album the works/songs rarely occur in a linear form (such as the case if you're trying to use the chards to decide where the songs go).

and i really don't want to get involved in this a gain. t&t to thread. i won't post his list, but it's based from this:

9 4 2 8 11 24 8 3 14 1 1 15 22 9 10 3 7 6 19 4 20 25 21 2 12 7 16 13 23 10 3 5 18 14 6 11 12 13 15 17

it's up to you to decide which #9 should come first, for instance. have fun and don't get lost!

hey I'm confused by some of this. what does "t&t to thread" mean. and those numbers...what does 'decide which #9 comes first' even mean? can you explain your view on the acts a little more?

[aztec litany service]

ugh...i can't be bothered to care about a "true" machina tracklist at this point. this should've been billy's job in the first place.

[Caine Walker]

Originally Posted by machinaii

hey I'm confused by some of this. what does "t&t to thread" mean. and those numbers...what does 'decide which #9 comes first' even mean? can you explain your view on the acts a little more?

"T&T" is a guy who posts on the forum. and he's all about this this stuff.

[dudehitscar]

Why don't you have Soul Power in the tracklisting???? Seems to fit in with renaming himself/his band and Rocking for God plus it's a kickass cover. The screaming at the end gives me chills.

[machinaii]

Originally Posted by dudehitscar

Why don't you have Soul Power in the tracklisting???? Seems to fit in with renaming himself/his band and Rocking for God plus it's a kickass cover. The screaming at the end gives me chills.

you are absolutely right. I think right after Glass Theme it would fit. (although I could also see it go before Glass Theme, with Soul Power still being a 'normal' Glass before the epiphany?)..and Blue Skies Electrique to me still represents Glass's early stages of leading his 'ghost children' to war. -""every song a new disaster...all were sung to the ghost children, the synthetic flesh flash of ideal and glitter gash...in their dreams, they saw him surreal, but he was as real as they needed him to be...discarded intil he roared back into their vision, within blood and sound, once invested there was no turning back for anyone...plastic playmates and wooden rock rot haunted their hari kari plots and glass' obvious plays for sympathy, or was it the other way around...he was a general leading them all into a war that he and they knew they could never win...but still they fought...to love and always die standing...moving in night funerals because all the others had perished""

[dudehitscar]

Originally Posted by machinaii

you are absolutely right. I think right after Glass Theme it would fit. and Blue Skies Electrique to me still represents Glass's early stages of leading his 'ghost children' to war. -""every song a new disaster...all were sung to the ghost children, the synthetic flesh flash of ideal and glitter gash...in their dreams, they saw him surreal, but he was as real as they needed him to be...discarded intil he roared back into their vision, within blood and sound, once invested there was no turning back for anyone...plastic playmates and wooden rock rot haunted their hari kari plots and glass' obvious plays for sympathy, or was it the other way around...he was a general leading them all into a war that he and they knew they could never win...but still they fought...to love and always die standing...moving in night funerals because all the others had perished""

the other part of the story Soul Power might fit is the part

.."GLASS begins to lose his balance on both ends when he becomes over righteous and indignant in his beliefs, alienating those who already believe in him and turning off potential new converts...GLASS sees himself as some sort of cosmic preacher, and if he just shouts loud enough the message will somehow get thru the din..."

What do you think?

[machinaii]

yea that makes sense. that would then be after Saturnine. There's still something about the style of the song that makes me think it's one of the 'normal rock songs'. I can't really decide.

[T&T]

Originally Posted by slunken

LEMME THROW THIS INTO THE MIX:
and i really don't want to get involved in this a gain. t&t to thread. i won't post his list, but it's based from this:

9 4 2 8 11 24 8 3 14 1 1 15 22 9 10 3 7 6 19 4 20 25 21 2 12 7 16 13 23 10 3 5 18 14 6 11 12 13 15 17

it's up to you to decide which #9 should come first, for instance. have fun and don't get lost!

i'll have to pull out some old harddrives and switch cases to check files i haven't looked at in a long while.
2008 is a no machina year for me.
but those are the correct numbers, that is the correct order.
even as the official order it's left a little ambiguous, but the facts are as direct as they could be.

i'll find the "posts of T&T" from the O-board,
it's been known for a long time that the machina i & ii tracks were mixed up
one does not belong. too early on a tuesday, glow doesn't impress me and they're not coming to my city, so fuck em for the next month or two. sorry.
seach the board and you'll probably find the last time slunken got "involved" and sorted out the digits.

[slunken]

its in the old "machina mystery - what you liked about it" thread; perhaps those o-site posts are better to collect dust w/ dignity, no, mein freund?

[T&T]

most definitely....
i know someone archived every one of them somewhere on the internet at some point.

but I don't know if they're still findable...
good luck.

[machinaii]

Originally Posted by T&T

i'll have to pull out some old harddrives and switch cases to check files i haven't looked at in a long while.
2008 is a no machina year for me.
but those are the correct numbers, that is the correct order.
even as the official order it's left a little ambiguous, but the facts are as direct as they could be.

i'll find the "posts of T&T" from the O-board,
it's been known for a long time that the machina i & ii tracks were mixed up
one does not belong. too early on a tuesday, glow doesn't impress me and they're not coming to my city, so fuck em for the next month or two. sorry.
seach the board and you'll probably find the last time slunken got "involved" and sorted out the digits.

that's cool. It's still pretty strange that there's only one 5, and three 3's...
I also have to admit that Let Me Give the World To You as the last track is somewhat different.
So I know that in everyone's itunes and shit that their Machina II is 1-25, with Slow Dawn as 1, and Atom Bomb as 25...so if Billy really did give that list of numbers out 8ish years ago, who's to say he numbers his Machina II the same way?...what if he has 1-14 as Glass-Atom Bomb, and 15-25 as the "b-sides"?
I know I'm thinking way into this, but it would actually make more sense this way...with only one 5, that would obviously go to Sacred and Profane, and if it was the reversed 1-25 of Machina II, then that would make "Go" the other number 5, which would then make sense in a funny way that Billy intentionally leaves out James' song that probably does not have anything to do with the story.
But seriously, why would there be 2 saturnines. that doesn't make sense at all.

[aldango]

Originally Posted by T&T

i'll have to pull out some old harddrives and switch cases to check files i haven't looked at in a long while.
2008 is a no machina year for me.
but those are the correct numbers, that is the correct order.
even as the official order it's left a little ambiguous, but the facts are as direct as they could be.

specifically, what do the numbers correspond to?

[T&T]

CR01 starts with Slow Dawn, and CR04 ends with atom bomb.. that's 1-25, no need to mess that up.

Saturnine is the interlude to the acts.. 3 times.
Stand Inside Your Love does not belong.




the numbers correspond to the original track numbers...

[aldango]

Originally Posted by T&T

CR01 starts with Slow Dawn, and CR04 ends with atom bomb.. that's 1-25, no need to mess that up.

Saturnine is the interlude to the acts.. 3 times.
Stand Inside Your Love does not belong.




the numbers correspond to the original track numbers...

oh, ok. i figured, i just didn't know where they started - you'd think they'd start with machina 1 and go from there...

[machinaii]

Originally Posted by T&T

CR01 starts with Slow Dawn, and CR04 ends with atom bomb.. that's 1-25, no need to mess that up.

Saturnine is the interlude to the acts.. 3 times.
Stand Inside Your Love does not belong.




the numbers correspond to the original track numbers...

ehhhhhh I don't know.
I know this is your thing, but I just truly belive one of the 3's was a typo and supposed to be the other 5. Stand Inside Your Love randomly not being a part of this does not make any sense whatsoever. Billy posting the correct order on the Older official sp board is believable, but to just assume the things about the acts and the interludes.......I don't know.

[T&T]

sure
whatever

the typo theory was discussed ad nauseum as well
but it was clear that "one does not belong"

make what you want of it. some people are believers of the typo theory, some people are believers of the bullshit theory. most of all these people don't even own a copy of machina2.

[machinaii]

haha, yea. If that was a real quote back then, then it just makes me wish I was around duing that time. So I'm still gonna nag or whatever about the credibility of the 4 acts. And I think it was Slunken who was saying before that Act 3 is supposed to represent the final show...so maybe that was said on the old boards too?....
so act 3 as the final show is..

Lucky 13, Cash Car ( V 1), Home, I of the Mourning, Blue Skies Electrique, Atom Bomb, White Spyder, Vanity, Glass, Heavy Metal Machine, Go, With Every Light, If There Is A God, Glass and the Ghost------saturnine interlude?

I guess my biggest thing is what is the point of including cash car v 1, and the glass alternate take. (meaning when Billy wrote the number list), to have virtually the same song in there more than once is pretty weird. The different Blue skies/If there is a god/heavy metal machina do have a place in there because they are actually genuinely different versions.

oh, and technically, wouldn't the one that doesn't belong be soul power, with the one #5 thing?

[machinaii]

I found the number thing also on the GATMOG myspace thing...

"Machina song order?


This is a list supposed to have been posted by Billy on the old SP Messageboards back when Machina/GATMOG was all the rage. It's meant to be the correct order that the songs from both Machina I & II should be arranged in to tell the story of Glass:


9-4-2-8-11-24-8-3-14-1-1-15-22-9-10-3-7-6-19-4-20-
25-21-2-12-7-16-13-23-10-3-5-18-14-6-11-12-13-15-17"

any light on the 3 Bold ones? Maybe that was how it was originally posted or something, indicating something else I don't know about.

[T&T]

march 12
IDES XIV...(but it did not say DAY XIV)

post 1
...and the time of IDES IX was given to the time of 1979...
...a leader must be chosen...and of nine questions when finalized six will be answered...

...the light cannot shine too brightly...however...for the ides have not come...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

post 2
...and the formal list must be drawn...questions until dawn...nine selected in all...by a leader short or tall...a capricious light named Slingy ...
...answers yet unseen will all be revealed in IDES fifteen...

...and the ides from point on are variable...an outcome made by all...

---------------------------------------

NOTE: It was revealed in IDES XIII that Chapter IV was never missing, but was in fact and interactive Chapter where we directly asked questions. These are the questions that we asked:

1.How can we go about finding the exact songs that make up Nocturnal Bethunes?

2.Who are represented by the letters "L...G...S...M...J"?

3.What do "D + R" represent?

4.What do we have to do to get IDES IV?

5.What order should the MACHINA songs (both albums) be in to fit the storyline most correctly?

6.What is the significance of the red writing in the MACHINA booklet?

7.What was the message Glass was trying so desperately to convey?

8.How should we go about making the revolution happen?

9.How will the pumpkins "resume a new pose as the machines of god"?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DAY XV - a...

...answers clean, precise...but the light shines perhaps not bright enough for some...but perfectly for those creating chapter iv...

i...incubate the eggs

ii...lily lucis...glynis gebara...starla soma...medellia malkath...june jesad

iii...goodbye drown...future titled

iv...one fold within...one fold soon to be revealed...one fold untold

v...9 4 2 8 11 24 8 3 14 1 1 15 22 9 10 3 7 6 19 4 20 25 21 2 12 7 16 13 23 10 3 5 18 14 6 11 12 13 15 17

vi...hidden chard of bethunes


...remember the ides of march

...and the date became that which was created...


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DAY XV - a...

i...ii...iii...iv...vi = SOLVED

...rearrange

...Lily's bridge...

...key: future...RVLTN...

...continue...

...and nearing the water they clasped their hands...but they were not quite there...

...add...

so... billy's just insane. don't worry about it.
spend your time trying to decipher the nagroc ylib mystery instead... i swear i'm not talking out of my ass.

[slunken]

Originally Posted by T&T

most definitely....
i know someone archived every one of them somewhere on the internet at some point.

but I don't know if they're still findable...
good luck.

page is gone...i remember 4 years ago it was only accessible through google's cache...and then, one day, *poof*...

Originally Posted by T&T

i swear i'm not talking out of my ass.

lol

[T&T]

okok, we'll get you started on the nagroc ylib....

There is a particular section of the Dead Sea Scrolls that contains the name 'nagroc ylib'. Most of the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in either Greek or Arabic .. however this particular scroll (undeciphered scroll #13) that mentions 'nagroc ylib' was written in abnalian .. an extremely rare language used by the religious nomadic sect 'umpouganu' that traveled in the early part of the first century. In abnalian 'nagroc ylib' can be translated as 'adam new'. Unfortunately, the scroll that contatined the writing that mentioned 'nagroc ylib' was so badly decomposed that it could not be fully translated into a meaningful, complete story (or book). However, the fragments that survived do seem to speak of prophecy and the end of times. I had never thought that 'nagroc ylib' when reversed could spell Bily (Billy) Corgan .. it really is quite fascinating and could put a fresh spin on prophecy.

This probally will not mean much .. but this is sections 1-3 of undeciphered scroll 13 .. much of it has been lost unfortunately .. but here is a segment of the copy I have of it.
UNDECIPHERED SCROOL 13 - DEAD SEA SCROLLS
(rough english translation : ---? = parts that can not be deciphered)
John with greetings ( --------- ?) marks new time as ( --- ?) this no one would know (----------? ) (--------- ? ) although they might (-------?) with resistance to the forces of evil (------? ) his name nagroc ylib, and his millitary (--------?). (----- ?) bones of decay and (------------------------?). Not one who hears the wind and the storm can tell (---------?) (---------?) flashes of light and heavy rain shall engulf the world (------?) heart of silence .. a mind of sadness .. life (---- ?) young and dead taste the bitterness of lies .. the corruption of truth as it pertains to (----?) . The beginning marked the end for man .. for as he lives he dies .. and death (---------?) .... (-----------?) .. has not one (-----?) try to see (------?) He knows that which (-------?) (-----------?). The flesh has never felt so much fire .. (---?) such hell (---?) finally (----?) presents the throne (-------?) . The demons twist and turn and cry for (---------?) ... but (----?) answer. (---?) sand (-----?) lie and wait for the end. (---------?) (--------?) for when it all (--------?) only the light (-------?) .

[machinaii]

I have no idea what any of that is.
What is it, and why did you switch it to that?
Since you were actually on the boards back in 2000-01, I figured I'd keep asking stuff that I found interesting.
Like Billy actually giving fans information back then is pretty much stuff I'd want to know about, considering the subject matter of his information...The acts, the bold numbers?...

[dudehitscar]

http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/mach...s_adamware.pdf

this is from the official site. Labeled as Exclusive Content. It's a 77 page graduate student's Thesis on Machina.

Just thought I'd point it out to anyone who's interested.

[machinaii]

Originally Posted by dudehitscar

http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/mach...s_adamware.pdf

this is from the official site. Labeled as Exclusive Content. It's a 77 page graduate student's Thesis on Machina.

Just thought I'd point it out to anyone who's interested.

Oh yeah, definitely. I saw that when it was fairly new. It was a good read.

[dudehitscar]

Originally Posted by machinaii

I realized I made a mistake here. According to my theories, (wow, that sounds incredibly stupid...) If Heavy Metal Machina and Everlasting Gaze is Glass blaming the fans for their betrayal and lack of support. After this, is the dream the night before the final show where he's in an army, Blue Skies, and then of course their final show...which is This Time. After that I feel it's Go, because it's simply them going, leaving..."you're the only reason why I'm terrified to go..." it's the doubts that they are having, although it's too late. Which then leads to the eerieness of I of the Mourning where he is alone and doubtful....so Ironically even though you wanted something inbetween Everlasting Gaze and Blue Skies...they are now back to back, with I of the Mourning supposed to be after Go and before Slow Dawn. ""he begins to walk by himself at dawn thru the waking streets, and slowly finds an inner peace with his spirit""....That means Slow Dawn, then leading to slowly realizing his innocence, then into Sacred and Profane, where he shows that "you're all a part of me now"...."he begins to love and empathize with others without fear of consequence, and so in his aloneness realizes that he was never really alone at all... GOD has always been with him, and always will be...and so in this moment he fulfills his destiny, both for himself and for GOD... "" Leading to his "If there is a god, I know she's watching me." (knowing that it's all going to be allrite." Le Deux Machina is the sound of God himself, acknowledging that Glass finally understands everything. The lyrics, (and Chart) of Home and With Every Light speak for itself. and the Age of Innocence is more like Glass' NEW age of innocence. It's like the day after the big realization where he is starting his life over for the better.
wow.........I know....too much

If Le Deux Machina is the sound of God then wouldn't it come near the top of the setlist. When God talks to him... Just before Glasses Theme?

Also Age of innocence. He talks about 'WE dismissed', and he says a few times 'WE won't make it home'. I think the WE is the band as a whole not Glass.

Not to mention the negative lyrics(Desolation YES) of the song.. it hardly fits with the PEACE theme at the end of the story.

Your thoughts?

[Shallowed]

or it could be a deus ex machina.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

[tstats]

this topic never seems to go away... i wish you all the best

anyone else hope billy never again produces an extremely ambiguous multialbum concept with cringe-worthy songs on it?

[Shallowed]

Too late, I think. He's planning on doing that now, isn't he?

[machinaii]

Originally Posted by dudehitscar

If Le Deux Machina is the sound of God then wouldn't it come near the top of the setlist. When God talks to him... Just before Glasses Theme?

Also Age of innocence. He talks about 'WE dismissed', and he says a few times 'WE won't make it home'. I think the WE is the band as a whole not Glass.

Not to mention the negative lyrics(Desolation YES) of the song.. it hardly fits with the PEACE theme at the end of the story.

Your thoughts?

There's a couple things with Age. First it was his last song written for Machina. I can't try to disprove the fact that he says "We" and not "I". But dismissing back roads to ride streets unafraid is an extremely positive line. "No more the eye upon you.".....His constant "belief" that he is a sage or prophet from God is no longer there, he is living for himself, but with God at his side.
"If you want love you must be loved, but if you bleed love, you will die loved"...I have Always found this line to be the like ultimate message of all his lines in Machina. It says it all, it is in fact obvious once read, but it isn't obvious to those who just live their lives. I understand desolation yes.....sure in Glass' story tragedies did happen, with June dying, or Glass just simply trying to find perfection without realizing that it's impossible, or that the whole time he thought he was alone, It's ok to acknowledge former tragedies...but wait, Hesitation no...His point in his life now is the NEXT step, the afterthought, the all out 'I went thru what I just went thru, and now I am stronger because of it'.