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Old 04-21-2014, 10:14 AM   #31
MyOneAndOnly
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Originally Posted by Bread Regal View Post
i was going to respond to everyone in this thread but then i had to drop the wife off at work.

there are a few reasons that i want to go. i primarily want to learn more about christianity. it plays such an important (if not central) role in american life that it feels weird to be ignorant of a great deal of it because i was raised atheist basically, and it seems like i'd find a decent sized intersection between theological expertise and impartiality there. i might have tried this earlier, but there are a lot of things that would keep me from being comfortable in a lot of churches. i've been in catholic, evangelical, methodist, baptist, presbyterian, lutheran churches before and i've never felt comfortable in those places, because i felt like i was being judged. perhaps this is more a problem with me than the churches. but the episcopalians and anglicans straight up say that they only criterion for joining them every sunday is that you like joining them every sunday, and that makes me very comfortable with the idea of going there.

it also appears that they are very critical with their scriptural analysis and will readily throw out anything that doesn't make historical sense, and that they reject the idea of a capricious and deceptive god with a fragile ego.

in the past i was really averse to the idea of even into a church. it feels so alien. but i know a lot of people get a lot out of it, even if they have a very casual interpretation of what god is. i just kind of want to experience it firsthand.

so i guess you could say i want to go as a tourist, but if i gain some other fulfillment while doing it would that be so bad?
having been raised catholic I've had my fill.

but there's nothing wrong at all with exploring theology. and theism aside there's nothing at all wrong with community.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 11:10 AM   #32
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I just think the institution of Christianity is so damaging to American society that I can't see myself ever wanting to participate in it outside of weddings and funerals.

I'm obviously aware of progressive and good Christians who are attempting to bring more progressive ideas into Christianity. But eh.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 12:15 PM   #33
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i think we should all just follow the teachings of jesus and leave it at that

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 12:49 PM   #34
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I'll be damned if I follow a Mexican.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:27 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
I just think the institution of Christianity is so damaging to American society that I can't see myself ever wanting to participate in it outside of weddings and funerals.
I agree with you. IMO there are two problems with religious belief. Firstly religious institutions ALWAYS enforce or support some type of patriarchy and cultural dogma that inherrently discriminates. Second and more fundamentally it requires people to accept that the universe is something other than what it actually is. It replaces fact with belief. Once you get people convinced of that all the other negatives, like patriarchy, racism, etc. are much easier to enforce.

I understand the notion of community, though, and I think for many agnostics who are raised in a religious tradition (especially straight white people who aren't going to be demonized or persecuted were they to remain in their religion) there's a social and cultural void in their lives when they leave that religious tradition.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:32 PM   #36
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I'd very much like to check this out. but as of today the closest one is Chicago. something tells me, though, that the American versions won't ******* the cursing hipster MC

http://sundayassembly.com/






Last edited by MyOneAndOnly : 04-21-2014 at 01:49 PM.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:36 PM   #37
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:12 PM   #38
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this thread is a great example of why sola scriptura is the least accurate way of understanding Christianity even though people who believe in it think they're being the most rigorous

i guess people really do choose churches based on which one will affirm all their bullshit and never require them to conform. just choose one of 5675987 christianity spinoffs

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:18 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Charmbag View Post
this thread is a great example of why sola scriptura is the least accurate way of understanding Christianity even though people who believe in it think they're being the most rigorous

i guess people really do choose churches based on which one will affirm all their bullshit and never require them to conform. just choose one of 5675987 christianity spinoffs
how many people actually go shopping for a church and switch religions or even switch religious denominations for the sake of being validated?

I think it's more likely that people stay where they are raised and they tolerate or turn a blind eye to the negative aspects of their religion

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 03:38 PM   #40
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Atheist Church: A Place for Smug, Self-Satisfied White People to Gather Together and Backslap and Appreciate Each Other's Smugness

Perfect for Scotty.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 03:58 PM   #41
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a Christian who doesn't believe in the resurrection is definitely skirting the fringes of what constitutes Christianity. I'm all for the right to identify oneself, but that seems to be really pushing it

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:05 PM   #42
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I mean it's basically Reform Judaism then? Sort of? I dunno.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:14 PM   #43
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the Church was very meticulous about picking texts for the canon that balanced Jesus' humanity with his godliness (this is called Christology) because both are essential parts of his identity. So if you think Christ was just a dude and not at all God, that just like hard for me to understand how it is still Christianity. Before Christianity was canonized though, it was a much wider umbrella... even so, that's pretty radical

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:14 PM   #44
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Trusting in Christ's divinity and trusting in his physical resurrection are two different things. One doesn't necessarily entail the other.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:58 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
Trusting in Christ's divinity and trusting in his physical resurrection are two different things. One doesn't necessarily entail the other.
Its the same

The resurrection is proof of his divinity. Its not the resurrection tho that's the most unbelievable. Its the divinity itself.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:03 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
the Church was very meticulous about picking texts for the canon that balanced Jesus' humanity with his godliness (this is called Christology) because both are essential parts of his identity. So if you think Christ was just a dude and not at all God, that just like hard for me to understand how it is still Christianity. Before Christianity was canonized though, it was a much wider umbrella... even so, that's pretty radical
That's an oversimplification. There were competing sects in the first few centuries. But to claim it was a bigger tent somehow kind of misses the mark. It suggests a type of inclusion or broadness of opinion that probably didn't exist. The truth was that many sects were tiny extremist cults. Especially when you get to the point that self proclaimed Christians stop identifying as Jews. Which is exactly the point that the resurrection story and claims of divinity appear.

You're correct though about Christ's divinity. Without it what's the difference between Jesus and John the baptist?

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:21 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by scottytheoneand View Post
Its the same

The resurrection is proof of his divinity. Its not the resurrection tho that's the most unbelievable. Its the divinity itself.
There is no proof of his divinity and as you say, stories about the resurrection seem to have surfaced a number of years after his death, rather than immediately afterward, so if that were the proof it wouldn't be enough for most inquisitive people anyway. And yet many of us still trust that he is and was divine, without trusting that he was physically resurrected after his execution.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:23 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottytheoneand View Post
That's an oversimplification. There were competing sects in the first few centuries. But to claim it was a bigger tent somehow kind of misses the mark. It suggests a type of inclusion or broadness of opinion that probably didn't exist. The truth was that many sects were tiny extremist cults. Especially when you get to the point that self proclaimed Christians stop identifying as Jews. Which is exactly the point that the resurrection story and claims of divinity appear.

You're correct though about Christ's divinity. Without it what's the difference between Jesus and John the baptist?
What are your sources for these ideas...?

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:25 PM   #49
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look what you started, john.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:29 PM   #50
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I'm still laughing about an argument between two kids of befriended neighbors today.

Younger one is five and apparently learning about resurrection and ascension in pre-school. Her 7-year-old brother suggested that Jesus could have used some sort of hot-air balloon "to get up there."
That drove the little one to scream in a hysterical voice (the sort of sound that makes your skin crawl and only a girl that age can produce): "WRONG, JESUS WAS A MAGICIAN!"
Followed by her brother stating Jesus must have been a shitty magician, otherwise he would have escaped crucifixion in the first place.

Highly entertaining.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:35 PM   #51
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Ha, kids.

I heard once that if Jesus has been ascending to heaven at the speed of light, he is currently still in the Milky Way. Kinda comforting I guess.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:49 PM   #52
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This is my church

No one tells me I'm going to hell
No one tells me I'm not worthy to receive it
I don't have to be anything that I'm not
I don't have to tithe to it
I don't have to feel guilty about anything
I can come and go when I feel like
I can dress however I please
I can sing, dance, or be silent
I'm accepted here

http://i61.tinypic.com/fvbqdi.jpg

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:55 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottytheoneand View Post
how many people actually go shopping for a church and switch religions or even switch religious denominations for the sake of being validated?
A lot of people do. I have. I've gone through phases where I'm searching for something, but everywhere I went, it never felt completely right. There was always something missing. I do believe in God, but I cannot attach myself to any specific doctrine. When I try there's always something that goes up against my personal beliefs and it ultimately never works out because I'm not willing to change who I am.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:00 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Starla View Post
This is my church

No one tells me I'm going to hell
No one tells me I'm not worthy to receive it
I don't have to be anything that I'm not
I don't have to tithe to it
I don't have to feel guilty about anything
I can come and go when I feel like
I can dress however I please
I can sing, dance, or be silent
I'm accepted here

http://i61.tinypic.com/fvbqdi.jpg
You and 21 others like this

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:41 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottytheoneand View Post
That's an oversimplification. There were competing sects in the first few centuries. But to claim it was a bigger tent somehow kind of misses the mark. It suggests a type of inclusion or broadness of opinion that probably didn't exist. The truth was that many sects were tiny extremist cults. Especially when you get to the point that self proclaimed Christians stop identifying as Jews. Which is exactly the point that the resurrection story and claims of divinity appear.

You're correct though about Christ's divinity. Without it what's the difference between Jesus and John the baptist?
yeah, I understand that Catholicism is not THE ROOT of all Christianity. There were big churches in places other than Rome. However, the canon as it is accepted today was determined by one church. So I didn't oversimplify anything, I just left out extraneous information.

you are incorrect about your "no bigger tent" point. First of all, Christianity began as many, many tiny little extremist cults, and the diversity of belief that existed in the first few decades after Jesus' death is striking. Later it was absorbed into larger and larger units, but the first "Christians" were probably almost all extremists practicing in secret. The early Christians were primarily Jews but they were also inspired by the Greek stoics and cynics, "pagan" local religions in the near-east, contemporary mystery cults, and tons of other places. Read Mark by itself (it was written first) and shelf all contextual and background knowledge you have about greater Christianity. You will find it is less familiar than you remember. The four gospels themselves each came from different groups of worshipers in very different places. And that is obviously excluding the enormous amount of early-Christian texts that were not canonized, usually because they were too far removed from the vision of the Church and its grip on power. I mean, the Gnostics came from the exact same tradition as Roman Catholicism except they were eliminated. That alone pretty much pulls the rug out from under your assertion that there was no "bigger tent."

You are also not really correct about the resurrection being a refutation of Judaism (an oversimplification if you will). The followers of the Gospel of Mark were almost certainly still Jewish by identification, yet right at the end, you see Jesus' body mysteriously missing from his tomb. Perhaps not an explicit resurrection like you get in John, but the idea is already there that the Jewish Messiah is not as afflicted by death as his followers at first thought.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:45 PM   #56
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So I actually lean more towards vixnix' argument that Jesus' Christology and his resurrection are not directly linked. Except that the idea of the resurrection (or at least of something supernatural happening to his body after death) most likely predates the idea that he is divine.


But either way, no resurrection seems to fly in the face of even the most liberal interpretation of the canonical gospels.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Charmbag View Post
this thread is a great example of why sola scriptura is the least accurate way of understanding Christianity even though people who believe in it think they're being the most rigorous

i guess people really do choose churches based on which one will affirm all their bullshit and never require them to conform. just choose one of 5675987 christianity spinoffs
i don't even

i'm just going to ignore this because it's ridiculous

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:53 PM   #58
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it's ridiculous that you're snarking on me for this. who gives a shit.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:53 PM   #59
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Maybe you shouldn't. Netphoria hasn't had a decent argument turned flame war in at least 3 or 4 days or something.

 
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:55 PM   #60
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Charmbag is a bully. Who cares what she thinks?

 
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