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Old 03-04-2014, 12:13 AM   #151
Eulogy
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Anyone who worships at the altar of property rights is probably an asshole.

Not totally related but relevant I think.

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 12:16 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
Speech doesn't affect the right of another person to participate fully in society.
I think Edward Snowden would have something to say about that, that is if he wasn't exiled in Russia for his speech.

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 12:20 AM   #153
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Also, if you think the kinds of perfectly legal threats, intimidation, shunning, gossip and other kinds of protected speech do not harm someone's ability to 'participate fully in society' you are woefully ignorant of just how damaging, and deadly, homophobia, to pick one example out of many, has been in just the past few decades.

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 01:36 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jczeroman View Post
I think Edward Snowden would have something to say about that, that is if he wasn't exiled in Russia for his speech.
well he did break the law...

NDAs. how do they work?

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:39 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jczeroman View Post
I think Edward Snowden would have something to say about that, that is if he wasn't exiled in Russia for his speech.
You have an interesting definition of speech

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:40 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jczeroman View Post
Also, if you think the kinds of perfectly legal threats, intimidation, shunning, gossip and other kinds of protected speech do not harm someone's ability to 'participate fully in society' you are woefully ignorant of just how damaging, and deadly, homophobia, to pick one example out of many, has been in just the past few decades.
what is this i can't even

you want to speak to me about the damage done by homophobia? as if i am clueless?

go fuck yourself, dude.

(and threats and intimidation, depending on context/circumstances, will not always be protected)

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 09:40 AM   #157
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libertarianism is an American political philosophy designed to advocate for the maintenance of economic, racial and gender segregation and oppression without using the traditional blatent vocabulary of oppression.

And the modern double speak they use is a real world manifestation of the type of shit Orwell warned about...

"War is PEACE. Freedom is SLAVERY. Ignorance is STRENGTH."

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 10:20 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
what is this i can't even
i thought the same thing.

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 10:42 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
what is this i can't even

you want to speak to me about the damage done by homophobia? as if i am clueless?

go fuck yourself, dude.

(and threats and intimidation, depending on context/circumstances, will not always be protected)
I know that you aren't clueless about this. So are you willing to admit that you are wrong about your statement that 'Speech doesn't affect the right of another person to participate fully in society'? Because clearly even protected and legal speech has had exactly that effect.

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 10:51 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jczeroman View Post
I know that you aren't clueless about this. So are you willing to admit that you are wrong about your statement that 'Speech doesn't affect the right of another person to participate fully in society'? Because clearly even protected and legal speech has had exactly that effect.
No.

Someone holding up a god hates fags sign doesn't affect my ability to do anything (is it harmful? yes, obviously. not the point). A place of public accommodation refusing to serve me because I am gay does.

Again, go fuck yourself. You're an asshole. How like you though to make some flippant comment about me being woefully ignorant of damage done by homophobia. The straight white male explaining to me how different sorts of bigotry and discrimination do/should affect me.

Go fuck yourself.

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:02 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
It's a stupid fucking question. This is a very specific issue.
law versus philosophy...the eternal conflict

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:04 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bread Regal View Post

republicans take umbrage at the suggestion that their policies are inherently racist. but the fact is that their social policies harm minorities in a greater proportion than WASPs. that is an absolute fact.
hey look if you want to be a WASP in america, anyone can do it you just have to work twenty times harder to get there as we do

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:04 PM   #163
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It's not philosophy. He's asking to apply a very general principle to a very specific situation (and when he tried to construct analogies to make it seem like I'm being unreasonable, he very clearly failed).

I'm beyond caring about his opinion at this point though. He can think I'm intellectually inconsistent if that makes him feel better about himself.

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:05 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
So ignore all of this. Your question is dumb and not at all relevant. There is not a "yes" or "no" answer to it. It depends on the goddamn specifics of the situation jesus christ.
it's just philosophy man

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:06 PM   #165
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oh for fuck's sake corganist is here now

i should probably not come back in here

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:09 PM   #166
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that guy is spot on about everything

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:11 PM   #167
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i really think he just wants to argue about the theoretical idea of property rights, rather than the practical nature of the specific issue, and you're like. YELLING AT HIM.

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:13 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post
i really think he just wants to argue about the theoretical idea of property rights, rather than the practical nature of the specific issue, and you're like. YELLING AT HIM.
I say I think the Civil Rights Act is a good idea and he asks if i support drunk drivers beating their wives.

He's not very good at arguing his position if that's what he's trying to do.

(also if you don't think his homophobia comment was worth yelling at him for then i dunno what to tell you. this fucking guy. what a prick.)

Last edited by Eulogy : 03-04-2014 at 11:24 PM.

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:51 PM   #169
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i dunno i think you are both talking past each other

 
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:56 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post
i dunno i think you are both talking past each other
i don't believe you think this, and if it was anyone other than me saying what i'm saying, you wouldn't say this.

 
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:48 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post
i dunno i think you are both talking past each other
i think trots is right about this

 
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:02 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
No.

Someone holding up a god hates fags sign doesn't affect my ability to do anything (is it harmful? yes, obviously. not the point). A place of public accommodation refusing to serve me because I am gay does.
That scenario is not the kind of thing I am talking about. I listed a few ideas earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jczeroman View Post
threats, intimidation, shunning, gossip and other kinds of protected speech
Good luck being openly LGBT and moving to certain towns in America. If you think people in homophobic communities haven't figured out how to legally 'restrict participation' in that community, then I think you are pretty ignorant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
I say I think the Civil Rights Act is a good idea and he asks if i support drunk drivers beating their wives.
Eulogy, at NO POINT has this discussion been about whether or not the CRA is a good idea. Everyone in this thread agrees that the CRA should not be repealed. My whole argument has been trying to get you to acknowledge that a person can be against the CRA for reasons other than the fact that they are racist.

 
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:26 AM   #173
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i don't believe you think this, and if it was anyone other than me saying what i'm saying, you wouldn't say this.
i'm implying it about JB also but i don't think he's being as yelly as you are

 
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:35 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post
i dunno i think you are both talking past each other
If only that were true.

This is pretty much a model for why political conversations on this board get derailed. In a nutshell:
jczeroman: Do you acknowledge that people can be for freedom of speech and private property rights without agreeing with every awful thing that people do with those rights?

Eulogy: It's nuanced racism.

jczeroman: that is based on a false dichotomy: a) you support the civil rights act or b) you are a racist.

Eulogy: (restates assertion) And if you do not support the civil rights act you are on some level racist. We don't live in a theoretical vacuum.

jczeroman: You are just asserting your point and ignoring mine. (lists other examples which show difficulty of equating support of specific action with support of all consequences of said action).

Eulogy: some of your analogies don't work, therefore I can dismiss all of them and not answer your question.

jczeroman: You've conveniently ignored the whole of my analogy in order to avoid having to deal with the principle I am getting at. Are you going to answer my question?

Eulogy: (restates assertion, for the third time) to disagree with the CRA is racist.

jczeroman: I am not saying the CRA should be repealed. Can you answer my question?

Eulogy: It's a stupid fucking question.

Eulogy: you think property rights are more important than prohibiting discrimination.

jczeroman: so you aren't going to answer my question then?

Eulogy: Your question is dumb and not at all relevant.

Eulogy: you're a libertarian. i find libertarianism inherently repulsive.

jczeromna: that is an ad hominem. Libertarianism is not relevant. You are unwilling to confront the problem with your argument.

Eulogy: (namecalling)

jczeroman: (restates question and restates why Eulogy's position is inconsistent)

Eulogy: (finally makes first attempt at actually answering question). Speech is different because it doesn't prevent someone from participating in society.

jczeroman: speech such as (examples) definitely harm people. Picks example of homophobia to illustrate.

Eulogy: How dare you bring up homophobia!

jczeroman: so are you not going to answer me?

Eulogy (most benign example of homophobia) does not limit participation.

Eulogy: (numerous personal attacks and profanities)

Eulogy: (fourth time) jczeroman is arguing about supporting the CRA.
*facepalm*

 
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:47 AM   #175
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Not like I am not an idiot for trying pursuing this conversation to this point...

 
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:48 AM   #176
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Actually, it seems like virtually all my conversations with Eulogy end with him swearing at me...

 
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:49 AM   #177
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you call eulogy out on succumbing to the ad hominem fallacy but your slippery slope and strawman fallacies are equally egregious.

this rhetorical exercise wherein you compare permissive alcohol laws to abolition of the civil rights act is just plain silly. the act of denying service to minority patrons is inherently awful. drinking alcohol isn't. your analogy is so flawed it doesn't merit a response, but here we are.

 
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:38 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jczeroman View Post
Actually, it seems like virtually all my conversations with Eulogy end with him swearing at me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Boy View Post
yeah but you're talking to eulogy

 
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:47 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jczeroman View Post
Not like I am not an idiot for trying pursuing this conversation to this point...
not really no, i do think trying to engage him on a theoretical philosophical level is talking past him because eulogy is not very interested in things that can't be proven and cited

and yeah the namecalling and swearing that's just par

 
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Old 03-05-2014, 04:27 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bread Regal View Post
the act of denying service to minority patrons is inherently awful. drinking alcohol isn't.
people can have property rights without denying service to anyone

people can drink alcohol and not be responsible about it at all, and become self-destructive alcoholics or drunk drivers

 
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