Ok Papa John, garlic butter isn't THAT awesome...

[Starla]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

so your point is that states dominated by the GOP are going to fuck over their citizens.

but we already knew that.

It passed because the people don't want to be mandated to purchase health insurance, and be penalized/fined if they don't. Aside from that, Obamacare itself will fuck people over. As I said in another post, it's not what people think it's going to be, especially for the poor, they will receive the worst care out of this. As mentioned above, employers will seek to cut hours so they don't have to provide insurance. A lot of companies have started to use temp agencies, because it's all on the agency to provide insurance...... and they don't.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Whaaaaaa

[MyOneAndOnly]

Obama mean to America because socialism

why people elect obama again?

[MyOneAndOnly]

I'd love to see what papa john's pays in Federal taxes every year. I bet is very close to zero.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Starla, you drink the Karl Rove kool aid. everything you're saying (regarding the impact to businesses) is complete bullshit. These right wing billionaires have created a political philosophy (Randism) that deifies their socio-economic position. It ignores basic economic facts, science and math and promotes a bogus world view. All they have to do is scream bloody murder and 20 million people bow down to their bullshit.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

Obama mean to America because socialism

why people elect obama again?

Because people are stupid. Why should Americans be penalized if they can't afford insurance? How is this going to fix anything?

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

Starla, you drink the Karl Rove kool aid. everything you're saying (regarding the impact to businesses) is complete bullshit. These right wing billionaires have created a political philosophy (Randism) that deifies their socio-economic position. It ignores basic economic facts, science and math and promotes a bogus world view. All they have to do is scream bloody murder and 20 million people bow down to their bullshit.

Obamacare completely fucks over the self-employed. Two of my friends are facing huge tax penalties now because they are contractors.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by Starla

Because people are stupid. Why should Americans be penalized if they can't afford insurance? How is this going to fix anything?

all of us are penalized when tens of millions of people can't get health care. we pay for it in other areas of the economy, and it increases the cost to people who can afford it.

Just like public education. the nation is better for it.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

Obamacare completely fucks over the self-employed. Two of my friends are facing huge tax penalties now because they are contractors.

bullshit.

Are you telling me your friends have no health insurance now?

the individual tax penalty for people who fail to carry insurance is $1200. If they're poor enough they will qualify for medicaid.


If you're talking about the fact that they have to provide insurance for employees, I also call bullshit. If they run a small business they'll qualify for subsidies that will allow them offer insurance for their employees.

[Starla]

Plus the fact that low income people who are just above the poverty line will be mandated to purchase insurance coverage, and they will have to pick the lowest quality plan for their household. The care they receive will not be that great, and people are going to find that they are extremely limited in what will be covered.

The first year, I believe in 2014, an individual will be fined $95. Doesn't seem like much, but in 2015 you will be fined up to $300, then I think it will go up to around $600 every year you do not have insurance.

We need a plan that does not punish the people. I don't see how this is going to work.

[MyOneAndOnly]

cry me a river.

it's the law of the land. Don't like it? pay your $95 and stop whining

[Starla]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

all of us are penalized when tens of millions of people can't get health care. we pay for it in other areas of the economy, and it increases the cost to people who can afford it.

Just like public education. the nation is better for it.

Yes, and look at where public education is now.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

cry me a river.

it's the law of the land. Don't like it? pay your $95 and stop whining

What about people who are just above the poverty line that will have to pay that but don't have the money? What about the low quality health care that many will be getting when they are forced to choose a low quality plan?

[Starla]

The Penalties

The actual individual mandate penalties under the ACA are perhaps the easiest part of the program to understand:

In 2014, the annual penalty will be $95 per adult and $47.50 per child, up to a family maximum of $285 or 1 percent of family income, whichever is greater.

In 2015, the penalty will be $325 per adult and $162.50 per child, up to a family maximum of $975 or 2 percent of family income, whichever is greater.

In 2016, the penalty will be $695 per adult and $347.50 per child, up to a family maximum of $2,085 or 2.5 percent of family income, whichever is greater.

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/...alty-will-work

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Starla

What about people who are just above the poverty line that will have to pay that but don't have the money? What about the low quality health care that many will be getting when they are forced to choose a low quality plan?

not that this makes it much better, but wont people get medicaid up to 133% of the poverty line?

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by reprise85

not that this makes it much better, but wont people get medicaid up to 133% of the poverty line?

yes

[MyOneAndOnly]

don't expect the wingnutz to listen to you though, cause Obama evil

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

bullshit.

Are you telling me your friends have no health insurance now?

the individual tax penalty for people who fail to carry insurance is $1200. If they're poor enough they will qualify for medicaid.


If you're talking about the fact that they have to provide insurance for employees, I also call bullshit. If they run a small business they'll qualify for subsidies that will allow them offer insurance for their employees.

Yes I am saying they have no health insurance now, because as individuals those plans are incredibly expensive and being young, it is a hell of a lot cheaper to pay as they go.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Starla

The Penalties

The actual individual mandate penalties under the ACA are perhaps the easiest part of the program to understand:

In 2014, the annual penalty will be $95 per adult and $47.50 per child, up to a family maximum of $285 or 1 percent of family income, whichever is greater.

In 2015, the penalty will be $325 per adult and $162.50 per child, up to a family maximum of $975 or 2 percent of family income, whichever is greater.

In 2016, the penalty will be $695 per adult and $347.50 per child, up to a family maximum of $2,085 or 2.5 percent of family income, whichever is greater.

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/...alty-will-work

Look at how insidious that is. A percentage of household income? Bullshit.

[jczeroman]

I would kill people for garlic butter so I'm definitely ok with this.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by reprise85

not that this makes it much better, but wont people get medicaid up to 133% of the poverty line?

They will, but the quality of care for adults will not be the same for those who can afford a better plan. That's the point I was trying to make. And yes, they will give medicaid to people who are eligible, in the same way one is eligible for SNAP benefits, based on your income. The problem with SNAP is once you start to make more, you lose your benefits, and the same will go for people who get on medicaid. You start to get back on your feet financially, and you go above a certain amount of income, you will lose the medicaid and be forced to pay or be penalized.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

Yes I am saying they have no health insurance now, because as individuals those plans are incredibly expensive and being young, it is a hell of a lot cheaper to pay as they go.

I'm subsidizing (through my private plan) the emergency care of people who go without insurance. Every time they go to the emergency room I pay for it in higher premiums and fees.

the reason private insurance costs so much today is in large part because people like your friend are not buying into the system.

the State and Federal exchanges will also help to create insuranc pools to mitigate costs.

You cannot have low private insurance rates when 50,000,000 people are not insured. The uninsured drive up the costs for everyone else.


Of course, we could have had Medicare for all, but the conservative Dems in congress refused to even discuss it. In that scenario all the complications of Obamacare wouldn't exist, there would be additional taxes placed on everyone and we would have all had Medicare. Which is essentially what Canada and Japan have.

[reprise85]

yeah i lost medicaid this month because im above the poverty line now. but i have medicare, so i'm set thankfully. i hope somehow this all gets figured out but isnt some coverage better than nothing, and dont we collectively pay for uninsured people anyway? sorry, i dont really know what i'm talking about as far as political ramifications

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

Of course, we could have had Medicare for all, but the conservative Dems in congress refused to even discuss it. In that scenario all the complications of Obamacare wouldn't exist, there would be additional taxes placed on everyone and we would have all had Medicare. Which is essentially what Canada and Japan have.

this sounds good to me

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by reprise85

this sounds good to me

that's universal coverage. that's Canadian health insurance. But for it to work you also need strong price and cost controls. something US businesses refuse to allow.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

Yes I am saying they have no health insurance now, because as individuals those plans are incredibly expensive and being young, it is a hell of a lot cheaper to pay as they go.

so when they are playing golf and throw out their back, it goes without saying they'll pay for their own surgery? also when they get cancer they'll pay for their treatments? car accident that paralyzes them? pneumonia that puts them in ICU for a month?

[Starla]

Originally Posted by reprise85

yeah i lost medicaid this month because im above the poverty line now. but i have medicare, so i'm set thankfully. i hope somehow this all gets figured out but isnt some coverage better than nothing, and dont we collectively pay for uninsured people anyway? sorry, i dont really know what i'm talking about as far as political ramifications

I'm glad to hear you got medicare. When I was on my own insurance, they cut me off in the middle of my ms treatments. Thank God I had tribal health to fall back on, but the coverage is still minimal and I wasn't getting everything I needed.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

Look at how insidious that is. A percentage of household income? Bullshit.

Yeah, without factoring in everything else that people have to pay for in order to just exist.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Starla

I'm glad to hear you got medicare. When I was on my own insurance, they cut me off in the middle of my ms treatments. Thank God I had tribal health to fall back on, but the coverage is still minimal and I wasn't getting everything I needed.

yeah, insurance is already terrible. i guess i dont see how obamacare makes anything worse... and i probably will have to deal with the medicare insurance gap (again), which obamacare has already made easier to handle since 2011... gap is smaller and the drug companies have to subsidize i think it's 50% of any brand name drug. i didnt have to worry about that when i had medicare and medicaid but now i will go into the coverage gap within 3-4 months next year... which means 50% of full price for all drugs for several thousand dollars. im not 100% sure if i will have that gap coverage or not, tbh. if i do have a gap i will find ways to pay but it is ridic. obamacare makes the gap smaller over time and eliminated by 2020 or something like that

[Starla]

It will hurt the poor who will receive lower quality health care, the working poor who will constantly lose coverage when they exceed the base poverty line and still cannot afford to pay for it, small business owners, and self employed. I don't think Obama's care is going to be any better than what we have now and what makes it worse are the penalties.

If Scotty wants people to stop going to the ER, then we better come up with a better system, because this is not going to stop the uninsured from ER visits.