Hobby Lobby SCOTUS ruling

[Trotskilicious]

the catholic church i hate those guys

[juliana]

You are giving the catholic church too much credit. Their hate for birth control is just about women not making their own choices, the catholic church is extremely sexist. I'm catholic and went to catholic school, it was obvious they want a double standard.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

I do kinda have the itch to make a couple points though

- Catholic teaching on contraception has to do with affirming the value of life. You'll find that Catholics also are very against assisted suicide. It's not an anti-technology or anti-medicine thing. Birth control is even condemned in the Bible, and was certainly condemned in the early Church. It's not a question of changing times.
- If you feel like "everyone is having babies" you still need to consider the numbers and realize fertility has been on the decline for 100 years. Relative to the rest of the world, affluent Western women don't have many children.
- Why do you believe children are always more immoral than their parents? As far as I can tell this is a completely ahistorical view of humanity, it at best covers the trends of post-war America.
- Your sense that "this is just how things always are" seems very cynical and passive to me. There has obviously been a ton of change in our society as far as children born out of wedlock, divorce, abortion, prostitution etc etc. Those things matter, and it has NOT always been this way.
- To give some specific perspective on the cultural impact of birth control, look at the midcentury decline of the Catholic Church. Many people misattribute the decrease in membership and devotion to Vatican II (which attempted to modernize the church, introduced the vernacular liturgy etc), but in fact the big blow was when Pope Paul VI delivered his encyclical officially condemning the use of birth control in 1968 that people started leaving in droves, and even much of the clergy did not support the Pope during this time. There had already been a trickle of dissent though from around the time protestant churches flipped on the issue about 30 years prior.

- I don't agree that making life last as long as possible no matter what as affirming life. People have the right to decide if affirming life means controlling their own death. But we won't agree on this.

- I don't see what's so important with having as many babies as possible. We are not going to die out from lack of offspring.

- I don't think children are always more immoral than their parents, that was my point - but it seems like a common view when parents talk about how children disrespect their elders and etc., that every subsequent generation believes the new generation is just doing crazy and outlandish things - I have read articles on this but on short notice here's people debating it: http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-o...-deteriorating. Generations distinguish themselves in some terrible and unique ways but that doesn't necessarily mean we are devolving

- Society's problems may ebb and flow in different directions but there will always be problems. Is there more prostitution than there used to be or is it being reported more (really I have no idea)? Is divorce such a terrible thing to be increasing vs. people staying in terrible marriages? Abortion is not an ideal thing to be happening of course, but again people have always wanted and used ways to abort pregnancies that were more dangerous than medical abortions. I don't even disagree on your points but instead of saying these things are terrible and shouldn't exist, I think I'm more realistic that yes they shouldn't exist but they do and we should work towards minimizing harmful outcomes than condemning people for making poor choices. Like championing birth control so people don't get pregnant and get abortions, which I think most people would agree is, at the very least, the lesser of two evils.

- Not sure if your last bullet is a point or just a history lesson. People left when they saw the church had a moral view that was wholly incorrect to them. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

[Trotskilicious]

i think prostitutes aren't treated like animals as often as they used to be

[null123]

We won't agree on much.
Mostly when I hear you all talking about your ideas about humanity you sound depressed and petty. Chasing after "good enough" as in, not in any immediate pain, not omg bossing anyone else around, not "hurting" anyone, this is going to get you exactly where we are, which is a nation of emotionally stunted, sad, empty people. You can't chase big problems with these cynical attitudes and small-time solutions. Societies can't survive without grand, holistic thinking and higher ideals than this. Never have and never will.

[null123]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

i think prostitutes aren't treated like animals as often as they used to be

Prostitutes have higher rates of PTSD than soldiers. Their (frequent) rapes and murders are not even investigated by law enforcement. Most prostitutes enter the so-called profession at 13.
But please tell us more

[reprise85]

But I'm not depressed and petty. These people you are calling emotionally stunted, sad and empty people are people who are mostly doing the best they can.
Mostly when I hear you talking about your ideas on society you sound angry and self righteous.

We cannot have an ideal society. We can improve society, but only with real practical ideas and not ideology. There are things most people can agree on and that is where we should start. Your personal morality can then start at that point. And I think I could reword what you said: Societies can't survive long term without changing, period. But change does not equal disintegration. Change is not failure. It is not sad or cynical to be realistic, it is sad to miss the opportunity to improve things where you can in pursuit of some higher ideal that most people don't agree with and is impossible to implement anyway.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

Prostitutes have higher rates of PTSD than soldiers. Their (frequent) rapes and murders are not even investigated by law enforcement. Most prostitutes enter the so-called profession at 13.
But please tell us more

This is terrible and needs to change but is it different than it used to be? Didn't people not ever even give shit about these people at all, and no one would even worry that it was wrong and terrible? How would you suggest we stop this besides making small, measured improvements like offering prostitutes free health exams and offering them paths to legitimate employment and longer sentences for pimps etc? It's not just going to disappear, we need to minimize harm.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

Prostitutes have higher rates of PTSD than soldiers. Their (frequent) rapes and murders are not even investigated by law enforcement. Most prostitutes enter the so-called profession at 13.
But please tell us more

i think you're being a little too aggressive because it was a sarcastic comment intended to indicate that i was well aware of how the vast majority are treated today in our life and times

[The exploding boy]

Originally Posted by juliana

I like how exploding boy or whatever his name is read only the first sentence of my 2-3 sentence post and then made a comment.

no i read the rest, i know that wasn't your point. I just felt like pointing out that that's not even something that can be said anymore. It's time to realize there is a serious need to lower our procreation rate. Oh yeah we could be more if there wasnt greed and resources were distributed better (like charm said). Great, is it gonna happen? Unlikely, therefore the only thing we have power over as individuals is to stop procreating.

[reprise85]

Like this whole thing with Hobby Lobby/birth control. Yes it is annoying that men jumped on the moral bandwagon but isn't that better than none of them giving a shit at all? Isn't that progress?

[juliana]

Legalize and regulate prostitution.

[The exploding boy]

Originally Posted by juliana

I do think that some men have sold women that sexual freedom is the ultimate feminism

Yes. And how.

[Trotskilicious]

charmbag are you like me, are you wondering what's freedumb really fuck this dumb shit

right yeah right but but but but who holds that control? WHO WATCHES THE WATCHPERSONS?

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by The exploding boy

Yes. And how.

i don't know how much of a doing that was of men entirely and exclusively

[The exploding boy]

Well no obviously.

[Future Boy]

please trots, they're trying to have a discussion here

[Trotskilicious]

fuck you dc turd

[null123]

i'm all about freedom, non-judgement and sexual expression. live and let live.

[Future Boy]

if i still read comics that wouldve hurt

[null123]

Also what the fuck is debate.org it looks like a nightmare

[Trotskilicious]

you're getting in there and making a difference by talking about stuff and participating in democracy

[Trotskilicious]

but seriously what the fuck is up with the thunder signing sebastian telfair

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

Also what the fuck is debate.org it looks like a nightmare

I was just trying to showcase what I was talking about in case I wasn't being clear.

[Trotskilicious]

seriously guys freedumb or control, either way it will be abused and we will be herded like chattel in service of someone else's quest for power

[duovamp]

Now take off your pants and dance for me.

[redbreegull]

It makes me a little bit glad that people finally realize how off the deep end charmbag is. I recall a time when it seemed like everyone was all over her shit. I guess I am "petty" and "depressed"

[Trotskilicious]

actually i think she made more sense 2 years ago but now she just sounds like one of the sisters from the handmaiden's tale

[null123]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

It makes me a little bit glad that people finally realize how off the deep end charmbag is. I recall a time when it seemed like everyone was all over her shit. I guess I am "petty" and "depressed"

And yet somehow, people still like me a lot better than you.

[Order 66]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

And yet somehow, people still like me a lot better than you.

http://forums.netphoria.org/customav...ar11943_21.gif