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Old 05-05-2008, 04:18 AM   #1
Cool As Ice Cream
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Lightbulb MCIS 3LP bootleg samples

The recently surfaced bootleg versions of the Mellon Collie vinyl have been discussed in other threads. But I finally found a way to transfer vinyl onto my pc. So it's time to let other people have a listen.

These transfers are probably not worth that much. I'm just glad I was finally able to transfer them. I don't think I can do any better, I don't have the equipment.
I also made transfers of the same samples on the officially released vinyl, so that you have something to compare with. These transfers have all been made on the same setup.

I've transferred three parts:
- the very beginning of side A: on the bootleg version, in the "silence" before the song starts, there's something weird going on...
- Stumbleine, at the beginning of side F: sounded particularly bad to me; listen to the way every "s" sounds
- WBFTT + Zero, at the beginning of side E: randomly picked

Here are the samples: http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=5...8278bbfbb38b9a

If you want other bits transferred to listen/compare, let me know.
Oh yeah, I kinda overdid this with 24/48 flacs. For the people who don't like this, I'll also upload some mp3s tonight.

I think the bootleg vinyl was sourced from an official vinyl. They made a transfer, maybe edited it (hiss or glitch removal, increased volume) and used that as the source for the bootleg.
Can someone who knows something about these things let us know what they think? Do you agree with this theory, after listening to the samples?

More info about the bootlegs:
http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=COLLDETAILS&item=2117 (black vinyl)
http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=COLLDETAILS&item=2322 (yellow vinyl)
http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=COLLDETAILS&item=2321 (red vinyl)

 
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:21 AM   #2
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awesome.

Did you pay much for the bootleg version?

 
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:53 AM   #3
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anything is too much for a bootleg, so yes.
compared to the prices they went for on ebay, no.

 
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Old 05-05-2008, 12:12 PM   #4
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mp3s of the same samples have also been uploaded. they're available at the same place as the flac files. (link)

 
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:34 PM   #5
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Thanks for putting up the samples; I've always been curious about the MCIS vinyl and it was cool to hear a bit of it.

Here are a couple of spectrals from the intro to Stumbleine. The top one is the legit release; the bottom one is the bootleg. The bottom one looks noisier or more saturated. Also, those sharp lines on the bottom one are the "S" sibilance you mentioned.

To my ears, the bootleg version definitely sounds harsher and tinnier. Maybe they did do some kind of EQing to it. It's interesting as to whether or not they sourced the bootleg from the original MCIS vinyl...because it'd be hard to tell if any clicks/pops/static/distortion are actually on the surface of your bootleg record, or were transfered from the setup they used to make the bootleg vinyl.

I'm curious where on the vinyl certain songs are (I could look it up but I'm too lazy). Because on a vinyl record, you're more likely to get distortion (that "S" sibilance) at the beginning of the record, and at the end. It's usually worse towards the end, as the needle gets closer to the center. Is Stumbleine towards the end of one of the sides?

What kind of turntable/cartridge do you have? It sounds like your turntable is set up well, because the official release MCIS samples sound nice. Maybe the bootleggers used a turntable that didn't have the cartridge aligned properly, and transferred the original MCIS vinyl poorly. Or maybe it's just a poor quality pressing overall. I have some records that sound really nice, and some that just sound like shit no matter what...there are plenty of inferior pressings by cheap companies that used low grade vinyl with impurities, etc....then there are the expensive 180 gram virgin vinyl issues, etc....

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Old 05-05-2008, 10:36 PM   #6
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It was also interesting how the tracks were different volumes. Looking at the WAV files...the bootleg Stumbleine is louder than the legit release. But the bootleg WBFTT/Zero is quieter than the official release. That seems kinda fucked up.

 
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:53 PM   #7
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Is it me or does the speed on both the bootleg and original a bit too fast?

Also what is the importance of comparing the bootleg? Isn't it generally well known that bootlegs are going to be lacking quality, even if it's only by a minimal amount?

 
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Old 05-06-2008, 04:39 AM   #8
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thanks for the feedback.

stumbleine is the first song on side f.
mcis is the first song on side a.
wbftt is the first song on side e.

i have a sony turntable. nothing special. looks something like this. it doesn't have an usb output.

Quote:
It's interesting as to whether or not they sourced the bootleg from the original MCIS vinyl...because it'd be hard to tell if any clicks/pops/static/distortion are actually on the surface of your bootleg record, or were transfered from the setup they used to make the bootleg vinyl.
i have two copies of the bootleg. both are new, so there should be very little to no wear at all. would it be interesting to make a transfer of both? e.g. the noise before mcis, if that appears in an identical form on both, would that mean something?

if all samples sound too fast, then my turntable can probably be blamed. (that's the advantage of having both the samples of the official and the bootleg release: if something is wrong in both samples, it can probably blamed on the setup.)

the importance of comparing: when this bootleg surfaced, people wondered where it came from and how it sounded. in the beginning it wasn't even clear if this was a bootleg. some people suggested it might be cd sourced. et cetera. by comparing the samples, we can find the answers to these questions.
sure, most people won't find this important at all.
but i've heard people say that they don't mind buying this bootleg, as it's a cheap way to have mcis on "teh almighty vinyl". maybe they'll change their mind if they realize that the bootleg's sound is clearly inferior. (next to the artwork not looking very fresh either. although it's a nice attempt.)
basically, the only reason i bought these bootlegs is information, for me, and for everyone else who is interested. i know this might prevent me from ever selling it again for the price i got it for, but oh well.

 
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:41 AM   #9
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Is this the one I've seen on eBay thats the red vinyl? Obviously its not numbered. Guess thats the give away.

 
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:44 AM   #10
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I thought it was yellow. Maybe I was high.

 
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream View Post
.

 
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:51 AM   #12
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I thought it was in black as well. perhaps i was triple high

 
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:57 PM   #13
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As far as the speed thing, I don't think it's much of an issue. While it may not be *exactly* the right speed, it sounded close enough to me. Unless you have a pretty hi-end turntable where you can adjust the speed to precisely 33 1/3 RPM using a stroboscope....your turntable is probably set up to play basically the right speed as-is.

Here is the empty space at the beginning of MCIS. Top is the real deal, bottom is the bootleg:

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Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting



If you look at the soft blue areas--the empty "noise" or hiss/whatever on the quiet part....it seems to be doubled on the bootleg....like, twice as much hiss/empty noise. To me, this would support it being a copy of the original vinyl....seems like it would be a natural artifact of taking something from vinyl and putting it on vinyl again. And maybe that would explain why the bootleg sounds "tinnier"....from doubling the overall "analog" sound you'd get from a record.

It seems like if they were gonna make a bootleg, that they would prefer to source if from the original vinyl, because the levels would already be mastered for vinyl. I don't know a lot about it, but I do know that you can't master a vinyl release to the same levels you can for a CD.

Something weird is how the MCIS piano sounds on the bootleg. It wavers, kinda warbly, unstable sounding. I think all the official vinyl samples sound great, though.

 
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:02 PM   #14
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As far as all the excessive crackle on the bootleg version, it might just be vinyl dust from the factory, when it was pressed.

 
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Old 05-18-2008, 06:48 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100ww View Post
As far as all the excessive crackle on the bootleg version, it might just be vinyl dust from the factory, when it was pressed.
i checked the other bootleg, and the rather loud stuff before mcis is not present there. so it must indeed be just that copy, and not inherent to the bootleg version.

the piano in mcis sounds warbly on both bootleg copies. it sounds ok on the official release.

 
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Old 05-18-2008, 04:44 PM   #16
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Why are people bothering to analyse the sound on a bootleg?!

 
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:05 PM   #17
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someone should tip these bootleggers and get them to press a MachinaII
i'd buy that.

& even a 5X TAFH vinyl box would be super pretty.
bootlegged and all.

 
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T&T View Post
...a 5X TAFH vinyl box would be super pretty.
bootlegged and all.
agreed; that would be sweet

 
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:14 PM   #19
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can someone rip a upload a 24/96 version of MCIS vinyl on what or waffles?

 
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:35 PM   #20
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doing a mcis vinyl transfer is on my todo list. not sure if i can do 24/96, but if i can, i will.

does anyone know how i can check if that is meaningful with my setup? as in, how can i see if my soundcard/line in can truly capture a 24 bit or 96 kHz signal?

 
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:53 PM   #21
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how about the 41/48/96 kHz? or can any soundcard handle all of those?

 
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:12 PM   #22
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i can't find the soundcard, by the way. there seems to be no separate soundcard.

 
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:21 PM   #23
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well, i bought a dell pc years ago and i think it's maybe integrated in the motherboard (or however it is called)? when i follow the audio holes on the back, i can only see a small metal thingy on the inside and it's directly on the big green thing with all the stuff on it, if you know what i mean. the small metal box says "+AMP" but that's about it.

 
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:26 PM   #24
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maybe try to figure out the motherboard first, if it's a dell it's very likely an integrated soundcard

 
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:26 PM   #25
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http://www.belarc.com/free_download.html

 
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Old 05-29-2008, 04:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The New View Post
this gives me: "SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio"

looking around, i also find: "Analog Devices ADI 198x Integrated Audio Rev: A10-00"

 
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Old 05-30-2008, 08:50 AM   #27
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You should be able to google your Dell model# and get some specs on it, Bram. I was trying to fix a fried Dimension 4400, and I found everything but a board diagram and overly technical specs. I would imagine someone out there (including Dell) will have revealed what kind of on-board sound you have. You could always check (brace yourself guys) the manual as well.

This sounds like a stretch, I'm sure you're more computer literate than this, but if you have on-board sound, you've probably got those three/four plugins in the back, color-coded, hard-wired to the motherboard. Otherwise your sound card is like a Network, Video, or PCI Modem card. A card.

 
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Old 05-20-2009, 04:11 PM   #28
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sorry to bring up an old thread but...

is there a good MCIS vinyl rip around these parts?

Bram, did you ever get around to doing that tranfer? If so, is it available?

 
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Old 05-20-2009, 04:54 PM   #29
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We are waiting for a 24bit vinyl rip still. What has all the other albums but not that one sadly.

 
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Old 05-20-2009, 04:58 PM   #30
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someone post it so i can upload it to what and collect the bounty.

 
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