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01-28-2008, 10:26 PM | #31 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Posts: 1,785
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The system we have now has all of those same problems. To stand as the last industrialized nation without universal health care, especially when we are comparatively better off financially than many other nations that do have it, is shameful. You can plug your ears and go "LA LA LA IT WON'T WORK" all you want, but at the end of the day, numerous other countries with governments just as shitty as ours have made it work, and work well.
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01-28-2008, 10:28 PM | #32 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 7,240
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So the people on the front lines who actually see firsthand where the system's resources are going and feel the brunt of any shortfall in those resources should have no say in the matter? If they say the system isn't going to keep working unless certain classes of patients are excluded, that's no big deal?
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01-28-2008, 10:39 PM | #33 | |
$ W▲ G
Posts: 6,576
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whilst i think input from front line health care professionals should be a key consideration when considering policy - i'm not sure that a health system should be administered by opinion poll, and i'm not sure that front line health care professionals are equipped with all the information they need to form a complete understanding of all the factors taken into account when creating policy. |
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01-28-2008, 10:42 PM | #34 | |
Apocalyptic Poster
Posts: 1,785
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Quote:
Then they back it up with bullshit useless figures like "60% of doctors say their hospital can't provide full care to everybody", which could mean one of 100 different things. It does nothing to describe specifically what the shortcoming is, and really does nothing to indict public health care systems in particular. |
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01-28-2008, 10:44 PM | #35 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 7,240
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01-28-2008, 10:54 PM | #36 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 7,240
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01-28-2008, 10:56 PM | #37 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Posts: 1,785
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So then, the appropriate solution is to just give up on state-funded health care because "politicians are dumb" and continue to allow corporations with the profit motive as their driving force continue to attempt to decide who can and can't afford life-saving surgeries, medications, and procedures. Also, let all the people who can't afford health care rot in disrepair? Good call.
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01-28-2008, 11:02 PM | #38 | |
$ W▲ G
Posts: 6,576
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_health_board The District Health Boards are given a set of objectives by the Ministry of Health, but have a degree of autonomy in how they choose to achieve these. In contrast to their predecessors, the Regional Health Authorities, the DHBs are non-profit providers. The performance of individual DHBs is monitored by the DHB Funding and Performance Directorate. [2] The DHBs are governed by boards, which consist of up to 11 members: seven elected by the public every three years, and up to four appointed by the Government's Minister of Health. These appointments are largely to balance the board's expertise as deemed necessary. [3] Voting for public-elected DHB board members occurs through the Single Transferable Vote system. it's by no means perfect (there has been plenty of controversy over DHB spending decisions over the years) but it's a good example of how you incorporate policy making, financial, and vocational expertise into the decision making process with the view to obtaining the best outcome for primary health care users. |
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01-28-2008, 11:22 PM | #39 |
Banned
Location: stay, far, away
Posts: 8,986
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suncrashesdown,
i think part of the problem is that our education system indoctrinates as opposed to educates about many things, in particular the issue of health care. If health care is a right, then why not a House or a Dodge Viper? Point is this with health care, there is no natural market flow to any of it. My step-mother is the Head Nurse at Stanford Hospital and occasionally we talk shop and I ask questions. Just today I found out that if you're uninsured and you get a service that cost, say $5000, the hospital expects that money from you like yesterday. Meanwhile, that same procedure with the same cost to someone who has insurance, will be negotiated by the insurance company and the hospital and will be reduced to about $500 in which the individual would pay about 20% of that...and at that, the insurance company will be late in payments to the hospital, which perpetuates the policy of an inflated retail cost of procedures to the uninsured. They're needs to be more natural retail cost to procedures, but that doesn't exist in the current system and won't exist in a Universal one either. Even with insurance, if your provider doesn't have deals set-up with a certain lab that will run a test, you bare the brunt of the inflated cost because your provider doesn't have negotiating rights with that lab. Last edited by The Omega Concern : 01-28-2008 at 11:36 PM. |
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01-28-2008, 11:24 PM | #40 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 7,240
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Quote:
Like I alluded to earlier in the thread, a lot of people somehow manage to have surgery or other life-saving treatments in America everyday...and almost all of them also manage to get their insurance companies to pay for it too. It seems you would have people believe that such a thing was some kind of rarity. Do people get screwed by their insurance companies sometimes? Sure. But using that as an excuse to throw out the whole system makes no more sense than other countries throwing out their systems because some people die waiting for surgeries. And sure, nobody is saying it's a good thing that millions of people here have no health insurance, but there's got to be ways of remedying that short of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and starting the entire system over from the ground up. For all it's warts, the US health care system does have its advantages too (eg., advanced techniques and tech, for instance). I don't see how wanting to preserve those by not going off half-cocked and radically changing things should leave one open to accusations of wanting to let people die and rot in the street. |
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01-28-2008, 11:45 PM | #41 | |
$ W▲ G
Posts: 6,576
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why do these millions not have access to primary health care? can you boil it down to one or two major factors? |
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01-28-2008, 11:57 PM | #42 | |
Banned
Location: stay, far, away
Posts: 8,986
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mainly because alot of employers are not required to provide health care coverage anymore and those without a job can't afford insurance. |
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01-29-2008, 12:09 AM | #43 |
$ W▲ G
Posts: 6,576
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ok so we have a group of people that cannot afford health insurance, either because they are not paid enough or they are not paid at all.
would this include: - the elderly (retired) - students - part-time/casual workers ?? and if they are included, what do they do when they need primary health care? |
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07-21-2009, 01:31 AM | #44 | |
*****
Posts: 15,731
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07-21-2009, 01:47 AM | #45 |
Minion of Satan
Location: kicksville
Posts: 7,031
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my visits to the dmv recently haven't taken very long.
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07-21-2009, 01:51 AM | #46 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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the government run military does pretty well
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07-21-2009, 01:54 AM | #47 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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still pretty amazing that the govt can deliver you letter across the country for under 50 cents.
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07-21-2009, 04:02 AM | #48 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 7,240
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07-21-2009, 04:16 AM | #49 |
Master of Karate and Friendship
Location: in your butt
Posts: 72,975
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07-21-2009, 08:09 AM | #50 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Location: catland
Posts: 1,250
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kind of fascist
we're all entitled a state that'll let people die? it's quite worrying the doctors feel that now how much in taxes do smokers pay buying smokes? why is the taxation of alcoholic beverages higher than soft drinks? how much has an old person paid in taxes during the course of his/her life? obese people don't work and get taxed? ffs |
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07-21-2009, 08:50 AM | #51 |
Registered User
Location: In my house.
Posts: 14,464
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07-21-2009, 08:54 AM | #52 |
Netphoria's George Will
Location: Fenway Park
Posts: 37,109
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Canadian healthcare is fucking terrible. My sis broke her leg and couldn't get an x-ray for 3 weeks and my family is not poor.
A U.S. model based on those Canadian princles wqould be devastating. |
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07-21-2009, 11:36 AM | #53 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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where's the demand from the right to privatize the military
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07-21-2009, 11:37 AM | #54 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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luckily, i haven't heard any serious person suggest we need to model our healthcare reform based on the poor parts of the canadian system
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07-21-2009, 12:41 PM | #55 | |
The Man of Tomorrow
Posts: 26,965
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What would be the problem of some hybrid public/private system? If the public system is bad/mediocre at the very least those that would get no care are covered, and those that can afford it buy their own. It's like taking the bus over driving to work. If you can drive you'll probably drive, but at least those that cant will still get there. Eventually. |
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07-21-2009, 01:17 PM | #56 | |
Master of Karate and Friendship
Location: in your butt
Posts: 72,975
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Quote:
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07-21-2009, 02:10 PM | #57 | |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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07-21-2009, 02:11 PM | #58 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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you're also forgetting the fact that one of the main goals of healthcare reform is to make it cheaper in the long term.
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07-21-2009, 02:38 PM | #59 |
Netphoria's George Will
Location: Fenway Park
Posts: 37,109
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Nimrod, as Debaser said your point is a bit invalid.
I haven't heard of any related setup to Canada, but my fear is this goes the way of theirs. But we are all arguing for nothing - there is no chance in hell any systenwide change gets passed. |
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07-21-2009, 02:56 PM | #60 |
Master of Karate and Friendship
Location: in your butt
Posts: 72,975
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Like I said the system is flawed, however the system being proposed is that you have to buy a ticket overtly.
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