Netphoria Message Board


Go Back   Netphoria Message Board > Smashing Pumpkins Boards > Smashing Pumpkins/Billy Corgan Discussion
Register Netphoria's Amazon.com Link Members List Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-07-2021, 02:17 PM   #61
Ram27
dumb
 
Ram27's Avatar
 
Location: corgan cult
Posts: 8,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc View Post
When you have a string of commerical hits like...

Mary Star of the Sea, Zeitgeist, Teargarden, Oceania, Monuments to An Elegy, Day For Night, Cyr...

...you don't fuck around with the formula. You keep Big Willie P behind the desk doing what he does best, producing Big Willie P records no-one buys.
siddartha and aegea too! legendary genius

 
Ram27 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2021, 03:09 PM   #62
Cool As Ice Cream
Just Hook it to My Veins!
 
Cool As Ice Cream's Avatar
 
Location: František! How's the foot of your turtle?
Posts: 31,990
Default

and oligaga and clitonions

 
Cool As Ice Cream is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2021, 05:48 PM   #63
AveryLoren
Apocalyptic Poster
 
AveryLoren's Avatar
 
Location: Upside Down Narnia
Posts: 1,449
Default

I really liked Zwan when they were this moody "we're over it" band. They had a great dynamic and attitude. Then Mary Star of the Sea comes out and everything is saccharine. Biggest switch up I think the Wild man has in his career.

 
AveryLoren is online now
Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2021, 06:54 PM   #64
VoxUpDoc
Apocalyptic Poster
 
VoxUpDoc's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ram27 View Post
siddartha and aegea too! legendary genius
What’s amazing to me is WPC has been using the “contemporary methods” and “finding new energies” schtick to justify his production and vocals for... twice as long as the original band were active.

At what point of failing to have a commercial hit or a positive fan response does he not think “duh, maybe my vox and production are part of the problem?” Instead he namecalls critics ‘zombies’ and doubles down like nobody listening to the band is fucking aware of what the previous records sounded like.

 
VoxUpDoc is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2021, 07:56 PM   #65
AveryLoren
Apocalyptic Poster
 
AveryLoren's Avatar
 
Location: Upside Down Narnia
Posts: 1,449
Default

Billy is a conundrum in that sense as he craves idolization and attention like a heroin junkie but will bury his legacy further in the ground before he turns ship.

 
AveryLoren is online now
Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2021, 09:28 PM   #66
Ram27
dumb
 
Ram27's Avatar
 
Location: corgan cult
Posts: 8,742
Default

at least jimmy just did actual heroin

 
Ram27 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 01:46 AM   #67
brothahi4L
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Posts: 1,051
Default

Yeah i am like bolli... i change my mind regularly... cyr is aahahhahahha..... i still like purple, telegenix , tears, .birch....the rest is dreck

 
brothahi4L is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 04:37 AM   #68
jakobtheliar
Demi-God
 
jakobtheliar's Avatar
 
Location: a house in new orleans
Posts: 339
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc View Post
When you have a string of commerical hits like...

Mary Star of the Sea, Zeitgeist, Teargarden, Oceania, Monuments to An Elegy, Day For Night, Cyr...

...you don't fuck around with the formula. You keep Big Willie P behind the desk doing what he does best, producing Big Willie P records no-one buys.
Cyr turned me off too much.
& In the resulting months,
I neglected reading much from here.

Just looking at this list...
I only see 2.5 good albums.
The rest is like some weird reverse bad dream, where your punishment is that the things you love will come back. Just bland and strumming. Generic. Quiet. Meh.
(Think Arrested Development but it's Ed Helms and not Bateman)

My personal #1 of those albums would be Zwan.
Had he not realized he HAD to get sole writing credit and then sabotage the album... This album would have been amazing.
It made no sense that there was Zwan 1 2 3 and that all of the great songs from each era were just missing.

Zwan is still Jimmy at his truest artistic zenith, in regards to alt rock.

But that list and resulting discussion is why I always come back here.

 
jakobtheliar is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 06:25 AM   #69
incubator
Ownz
 
Posts: 960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc View Post
What’s amazing to me is WPC has been using the “contemporary methods” and “finding new energies” schtick to justify his production and vocals for... twice as long as the original band were active.

At what point of failing to have a commercial hit or a positive fan response does he not think “duh, maybe my vox and production are part of the problem?” Instead he namecalls critics ‘zombies’ and doubles down like nobody listening to the band is fucking aware of what the previous records sounded like.
He's not an idiot, he 100% knows what people don't like about his modern records. Every time he works on a new record he says or does all the right things to make fans think he "gets it" and it's going to be "good" this time. He's trolling.

Maybe with the MCIS sequel he's giving fans what they think they want but I wouldn't at all be surprised if it's 33 happy acoustic + synth songs about enjoying summer. And then he feigns surprise that fans don't enjoy this "natural progression" from the MCIS and Machina sounds.

 
incubator is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 06:57 AM   #70
eviltimeban
Ownz
 
eviltimeban's Avatar
 
Posts: 903
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc View Post
What’s amazing to me is WPC has been using the “contemporary methods” and “finding new energies” schtick to justify his production and vocals for... twice as long as the original band were active.

At what point of failing to have a commercial hit or a positive fan response does he not think “duh, maybe my vox and production are part of the problem?” Instead he namecalls critics ‘zombies’ and doubles down like nobody listening to the band is fucking aware of what the previous records sounded like.
Meanwhile Mogwai get a UK number 1 album that features a track that sounds exactly like old style Smashing Pumpkins. Whereas Cyr reaches number 71.

 
eviltimeban is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 09:32 AM   #71
TheAlter
Demi-God
 
TheAlter's Avatar
 
Posts: 311
Default

Mogwai's number 1 record is the pinnacle of a career built on a string of solid albums. They've got dedicated fans everywhere. I just heard Hungry Face used in a documentary about Libya.

Willie P made all the wrong choices and now ironically it's those choices that have made SP a nostalgia act.

Namecalling fans "zombies" but when it's the Tame Impala dude oh yeah of course thank you! Let's talk about Siamese Dream! Smh

 
TheAlter is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 10:07 AM   #72
VoxUpDoc
Apocalyptic Poster
 
VoxUpDoc's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAlter View Post
Mogwai's number 1 record is the pinnacle of a career built on a string of solid albums. They've got dedicated fans everywhere. I just heard Hungry Face used in a documentary about Libya.

Willie P made all the wrong choices and now ironically it's those choices that have made SP a nostalgia act.

Namecalling fans "zombies" but when it's the Tame Impala dude oh yeah of course thank you! Let's talk about Siamese Dream! Smh
Fair points in general, but Mogwai scoring a number 1 record was a freak anomaly, and can't be attributed to them building a steady fanbase over 25 years.

 
VoxUpDoc is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 10:31 AM   #73
VoxUpDoc
Apocalyptic Poster
 
VoxUpDoc's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by incubator View Post
He's not an idiot, he 100% knows what people don't like about his modern records. Every time he works on a new record he says or does all the right things to make fans think he "gets it" and it's going to be "good" this time. He's trolling.

Maybe with the MCIS sequel he's giving fans what they think they want but I wouldn't at all be surprised if it's 33 happy acoustic + synth songs about enjoying summer. And then he feigns surprise that fans don't enjoy this "natural progression" from the MCIS and Machina sounds.
Initially I assumed the doubling down was due to denial about his own viability as a multi-tasking solo pop artist, so he thought he would score a hit single, and prove the old fans wrong. Adopting the SP name again and re-recruiting the band was just a means of packaging his "solo artist" work because, again, he was in denial that his actual songs, production, vocals and creative choices were the issue.

But even scoring a hit at this point, he'd have to admit the last twenty years have been pish. I don't think he has an OG Pumpkins album in him, and I don't think he wants to produce MCIS pt 3. He's just saying whatever to try and get press attention for the new record. He'll put it out and it'll be the same style and quality as all zombie SP stuff, and he'll continue to blame those who prefer his older work for not getting it, take whatever profits he gets from touring. I no longer think it's about scoring a hit or even living up to the legacy of the band, it's about keeping the denial going for as long as it can pay out - and removing anyone from his circle who threatens the delusion.

 
VoxUpDoc is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 11:47 AM   #74
TheAlter
Demi-God
 
TheAlter's Avatar
 
Posts: 311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc View Post
Fair points in general, but Mogwai scoring a number 1 record was a freak anomaly, and can't be attributed to them building a steady fanbase over 25 years.
A freak anomaly for sure but i feel they've really cemented their reputation among the "record store day" public. Almost all people i know who are into physical LPs are into Mogwai, too.

Last edited by TheAlter : 03-08-2021 at 11:52 AM.

 
TheAlter is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 01:06 PM   #75
New Art Rioter
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Location: vortex of lost souls
Posts: 1,615
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc View Post
Fair points in general, but Mogwai scoring a number 1 record was a freak anomaly, and can't be attributed to them building a steady fanbase over 25 years.
Of course it can be. Check their UK chart positions, the last few records apart from the soundtrack stuff have steadily charted in higher positions. They have built a very loyal fanbase who will still buy physical media.

 
New Art Rioter is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 06:27 PM   #76
LoveIsSuicide42
Pledge
 
Posts: 158
Default

Mogwai stopped expanding their sound around Mr. Beast and have since settled into putting out comfortable records at a steady pace. Nothing they've done since Mr. Beast strikes me as exciting or interesting; it all sort of just repeats the same dynamics with different songs/melodies. It's not interesting, but it's good.

Billy tries to create a whole new idea of the band every time he gets in the studio, and acts like each record is going to be some big breakthrough. It never is.

It's a very, very different approach, and while neither SP or Mogwai are bands I expect to see at the top of an albums chart in 2021, it's not shocking at all that the Mogwai approach is the one that saw success.

Last edited by LoveIsSuicide42 : 03-08-2021 at 06:32 PM.

 
LoveIsSuicide42 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 07:30 PM   #77
Reyngel
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,569
Default

Outside of Billy’s vibrato vocals potentially killing the entire album, I’d also assume that the album just won’t have a lot to say that normal people can connect with. Mellon Collie tackled love and loss—pretty universal themes. Machina was essentially the retrospective final-word of the Pumpkins, which at least long-time Pumpkins fans could find something interesting about. For this last sequel, I have my doubts about it not being long-winded and hyper vague and just generally impossible to relate to for people of any age.

 
Reyngel is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 07:37 PM   #78
T&T
Socialphobic
 
T&T's Avatar
 
Location: montreal
Posts: 10,261
Default

Billy should release instrumental versions of his albums.

 
T&T is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 09:23 PM   #79
thedeadofnight
Ownz
 
thedeadofnight's Avatar
 
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyngel View Post
Outside of Billy’s vibrato vocals potentially killing the entire album, I’d also assume that the album just won’t have a lot to say that normal people can connect with. Mellon Collie tackled love and loss—pretty universal themes. Machina was essentially the retrospective final-word of the Pumpkins, which at least long-time Pumpkins fans could find something interesting about. For this last sequel, I have my doubts about it not being long-winded and hyper vague and just generally impossible to relate to for people of any age.
That's a good point. The lyrics since Oceania have been nothing but utter word salad, stream of conscious garbage that no one can relate or sing along to.

So not only will MCIS 3 have +33db dry vibrato vocals, it'll also feature absolutely non-sensical lyrics to go with it.

 
thedeadofnight is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 09:28 PM   #80
thedeadofnight
Ownz
 
thedeadofnight's Avatar
 
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 605
Default

That said, it's almost admirable that someone could seriously release lyrics like these


You are a cypher or fallacy
On which I torched an August field
So take bitter season, devil's roots
If you grieve forth what's left to us
To soldier on thus for crimson tide
Or tender trust

 
thedeadofnight is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2021, 10:03 PM   #81
Ram27
dumb
 
Ram27's Avatar
 
Location: corgan cult
Posts: 8,742
Default

it's really insane cause surely having a wife and kid gives him normal people experiences to write about

tangents vex the whorl

 
Ram27 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 04:20 AM   #82
VoxUpDoc
Apocalyptic Poster
 
VoxUpDoc's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedeadofnight View Post
That said, it's almost admirable that someone could seriously release lyrics like these

You are a cypher or fallacy
On which I torched an August field
So take bitter season, devil's roots
If you grieve forth what's left to us
To soldier on thus for crimson tide
Or tender trust
It’s like he put a bunch of 1930 / 40’s poetry into an AI.

It doesn’t spoil the tracks for me, but like his producing, he seems to be doubling down on his “poetry”.

If someone tells Billy Corgan he isn’t good at something, you can bet your ass he’s willing to flush his talents down the toilet in pursuit of continuing to be very bad at that thing.

 
VoxUpDoc is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 04:59 AM   #83
New Art Rioter
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Location: vortex of lost souls
Posts: 1,615
Default

It's interesting as there was such a marked swing from Monuments ultra simplistic 3 min pop lyrics to mega dense thesaurus vomit

Really hope he pulls it back, it's a pretty valid criticism that a lot of the new stuff seems to be more of a personal challenge to how many unique words he can use rather than a desire to express anything heartfelt and personal. Sometimes it works OK but the strike rate is pretty low

 
New Art Rioter is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 06:16 AM   #84
Ram27
dumb
 
Ram27's Avatar
 
Location: corgan cult
Posts: 8,742
Default

i'm kind of wondering like....he's literally been doing this 30 years, how exhausted of guitars would he be? i've only been playing 5 years so of course i want more rock...

 
Ram27 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 06:32 AM   #85
TheAlter
Demi-God
 
TheAlter's Avatar
 
Posts: 311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedeadofnight View Post
That said, it's almost admirable that someone could seriously release lyrics like these


You are a cypher or fallacy
On which I torched an August field
So take bitter season, devil's roots
If you grieve forth what's left to us
To soldier on thus for crimson tide
Or tender trust
He seems to use the most convoluted words on purpose... the result is amateur poetry club.

 
TheAlter is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 07:31 AM   #86
eviltimeban
Ownz
 
eviltimeban's Avatar
 
Posts: 903
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ram27 View Post
i'm kind of wondering like....he's literally been doing this 30 years, how exhausted of guitars would he be? i've only been playing 5 years so of course i want more rock...
I've been playing guitar for 35 years and I still get excited when I pick one up. There's always new pedals to discover, new things to learn, new techniques to incorporate into one's music.

And there's also doing what you do best. Billy is at his best when he's cranking out riffs and countering those riffs with soft dreamy interludes. Everybody knows that. He knows that. There's guitar playing on those first few albums that still stuns me to this day. I'm sure he hasn't lost that ability, as he has remained a professional musician.

Sure, he can make decent music in a different way (Adore) but fundamentally it comes down to the traditional use of the instrument.

There's some things you don't get bored of, especially if you're good at them. ;-)

 
eviltimeban is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 08:15 AM   #87
TheAlter
Demi-God
 
TheAlter's Avatar
 
Posts: 311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eviltimeban View Post
I've been playing guitar for 35 years and I still get excited when I pick one up. There's always new pedals to discover, new things to learn, new techniques to incorporate into one's music.

And there's also doing what you do best. Billy is at his best when he's cranking out riffs and countering those riffs with soft dreamy interludes. Everybody knows that. He knows that. There's guitar playing on those first few albums that still stuns me to this day. I'm sure he hasn't lost that ability, as he has remained a professional musician.

Sure, he can make decent music in a different way (Adore) but fundamentally it comes down to the traditional use of the instrument.

There's some things you don't get bored of, especially if you're good at them. ;-)
If you look at his promotional videos like the Op amp Big Muff or the Guitar Center one, you get the impression he's no longer into playing guitar.

Of course he'll rehearse the old songs for the tour but that's pretty much it. He said in his Q&A that he doesn't even keep electric guitars at home, or something like that.

 
TheAlter is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 09:54 AM   #88
eviltimeban
Ownz
 
eviltimeban's Avatar
 
Posts: 903
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAlter View Post
If you look at his promotional videos like the Op amp Big Muff or the Guitar Center one, you get the impression he's no longer into playing guitar.

Of course he'll rehearse the old songs for the tour but that's pretty much it. He said in his Q&A that he doesn't even keep electric guitars at home, or something like that.
I dunno, he seemed pretty happy to get his Gish guitar back.

Besides most big artists keep their instruments in rehearsal studio spaces, and if they are valuable instruments, in the right environment. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have an acoustic guitar lying around.

 
eviltimeban is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 10:09 AM   #89
brothahi4L
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Posts: 1,051
Default

But even scoring a hit at this point, he'd have to admit the last twenty years have been pish. I don't think he has an OG Pumpkins album in him, and I don't think he wants to produce MCIS pt 3. He's just saying whatever to try and get press attention for the new record. He'll put it out and it'll be the same style and quality as all zombie SP stuff, and he'll continue to blame those who prefer his older work for not getting it, take whatever profits he gets from touring. I no longer think it's about scoring a hit or even living up to the legacy of the band, it's about keeping the denial going for as long as it can pay out - and removing anyone from his circle who threatens the delusion.[/quote]



Well said....he just cannot write a great album. He was lucky enough being of of those dominating alternative rock in the 90s.
But we wont see a great vomeback or old sound...it will repeat itself. Synths, stupid lyrics, voice up front, dry and static production.

 
brothahi4L is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 10:30 AM   #90
TheAlter
Demi-God
 
TheAlter's Avatar
 
Posts: 311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eviltimeban View Post
I dunno, he seemed pretty happy to get his Gish guitar back.

Besides most big artists keep their instruments in rehearsal studio spaces, and if they are valuable instruments, in the right environment. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have an acoustic guitar lying around.
Yeah but dude is Billy-fucking-Corgan. Just a spare acoustic on the sofa? Most pros have tons of guitars lying around on top of those at the rehearsal space. It's the sign they are just tools of the trade imo.

 
TheAlter is offline
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Google


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:56 PM.




Smashing Pumpkins, Alternative Music
& General Discussion Message Board and Forums
www.netphoria.org - Copyright © 1998-2020