Era Vulgaris > Zeitgeist ??

[AWorldDisowned]

You could say that this belongs in the General Music Discussion section but I wanted the opinion of the folks that post on this section of the website more than anything else...

First off, I apologize for the long post, but I feel like QOTSA and Pumpkins are really similar bands in that they both kick ass on an unprecedented level, and they both have similarly themed albums this time around, so I felt like there was a lot to say on this topic.

Both albums seem to aim at mixing statements about the present state of American culture with good 'ol fashioned rock. Which one do you think does a better job of mixing criticism/ artistic expressions of frustration with the age we live in with engaging rock tunes?

I say Era Vulgaris. Lyrics are more focused when they need to be, and the music is fresh. Also the placement of the album within QOTSA's existing catalog makes a lot more sense to me.

Zeitgiest first of all, with an album cover that boasts the statue of liberty up to her knees in water, in the end winds up giving me the feeling that this album is one big empty promise. Basically I think there should have been more substantially politicized lyrics. Yeah there's a song titled 'united states' in which Billy calls for revolution; but against what? Why should people be angry? Yeah, there are plenty of reasons, but it feels more like Billy's jumping on the band wagon of political criticism, than he is actually making any kind of coherent statement about the state of affairs here in the U.S. Bottom line; it's easy to make empty statements. Not once did I hear one really good politically charged observation on the album or poetic expression of anger or frustration with our government or society. This makes the Pumpkins seem more like an emo band to me than anything else in that they are trying to seem angry or upset without actually giving a really GOOD reason to feel that way in the first place.

On the other hand, Era Vulgaris has some of the most cynical lyrics I've ever heard. Comparing our culture's obsession with fortune and fame to being like "diamonds in shit" initially comes to mind. Through and through there are some really great lines on this album. "you're insulted. You can't be bought or sold. Translation offer too low. You don't know what you're worth. It isn't much." etc. Also when Homme and Corgan decide to give the cultural criticism a rest and talk about other things, Corgan tends towards making cliched love songs to fill the gap where as Homme has more interesting things to talk about.

The music on Zeitgeist is surprisingly bland in my opinion. Maybe you think Adore and TFE are kinda bland, but you can't deny that there is beauty on those albums. I love the sonic landscapes found on there, and even if those albums aren't as engaging as the Pumpkins' past work, you can't deny that there is plenty of atmosphere and layering to be appreciated on them. The Machina era tunes are at least different than anything else I've ever heard as well. The mixture of guitar tones, and sonic haze with the more tried and true pop-like structure that Adore lacked, whether you like the songs or not, at least made Machina different than anything else at the time and at most made the Pumpkins one of the few rock bands to emerge from the mid-90's rock era capable of creating a piece of work that was recognizable yet progressive at the same time. Now flash forward to 2007's Zeitgeist. The songs are all way too straight forward for me, and for the first time the Pumpkins are boring me. Every song on here bores me. There are moments that get me excited but without fail, something comes along and ruins the songs for me. There is at least one part of every song on the album that makes me wonder what the fuck Billy was thinking when he decided to put that line or part in. See "we are starz, we are", the gay ass "woo" in U.S., cheesy guitar solo in Pomp, etc. etc. etc.

Also the only way that I can enjoy the harder songs on the album is to crank the volume up. I've never had to do that before. U.S. puts me to sleep unless it's cranked.

On the other hand...Turning on a screw starts Era Vulgaris off on the right foot and the album keeps the pace going the entire time. The songs are all keepers. Suture up your future is haunting. Misfit love is more danceable than any thing I've heard QOTSA do before. It's truly the album I wanted them to make at this point in their careers. They were able to avoid being a stale one formula rock band with this album in my opinion. If you listen to their earlier stuff then you knew that there was more to QOTSA than the riff rock of Songs for the deaf and Lullabies, but it's nice to hear them branch out into different sounds at this point in their career. Not everyone likes it, but I really do. A lot.

Lastly Zeitgeist, for a "come back" album really strikes me as a flop. Why does Billy need a vehicle for his lyrics? Like the strange attempt at a "concept album" with Machina. I just don't think that Billy needs a gimmick to make a good Pumpkins album. I would have preferred the album to have just been a collection of interesting Pumpkin flavored tunes. I feel like the way the Pumpkins ended in 2000, with the ill-fated Machina album which never really got the chance to be what the Pumpkins wanted it to be, was a bitter sweet ending to one of the most creative mainstream bands of the 90's. Was it the way the band and fans alike would have wanted it to end? No. But I felt like it was kind of appropriate. An interesting, yet increasingly irrelevant rock band that was trying to be progressive with their songs and albums in a music industry that was determined to hold on to the status quo if not revert back to the over sexualized vanity of 80's pop music painted the music industry in a negative light much more than it did the Pumpkins. I liked that ending.

I felt like Billy Corgan and Jimmy Chamberlin unfiltered through any other creative influences that might sway them in one direction or the other could have produced an amazing album together, and I had high hopes. But I expected a lot and got a little. No, it's not a completely terrible album. But for me, it's definitely the weakest Pumpkins album, and misses the mark musically and conceptually. Era Vulgaris on the other hand is interesting, relevant, engaging, and sounds really good.. ultimately a welcome addition to their catalogue. Zeitgiest on the other hand seems out of place when I put it next to the rest of my Pumpkins collection.

That's my personal opinion. Anyone else find the comparison of these two albums to be discussion worthy?

[redbull]

I totally agree. Era Vulgaris is my second favorite Queens album behind Songs for the Deaf. I'd say it's much better than Zeitgeist (also Machina)

[redbull]

you're gonna get torn apart for this thread btw

[Mablak]

Not really. There's no discussion to be had. QOTSA is boring and poorly thought out rock. But what makes almost all qotsa unlistenable is the insufferably trite and tiresome lyrics, capable of being produced by an adolescent.

Zeitgeist isn't a political album, maybe that's where you're going wrong in this comparison here. I expected something political as well, but I'm not complaining that we got something different.

[Dogfighter28]

I've only heard "Sick, Sick, Sick" and thats better than most of Zeitgeist, so its probably that Era Vulgaris is the better album. I'm not jonesing to download it though.

[AWorldDisowned]

Why is QOTSA boring and poorly thought out? I think they're one of the few entertaining rock bands today. What QOTSA albums have you listened to Mablak?

[Fathoms (unadored)]

It's friday night. A time for rocking, not for analysis. Let's all just crack open some beers, crank up the volume (twist off the knob!), listen to these albums back to back and then decide where they fall. Personally, I'm holding off my judgement of Zeitgeist for a few months because I'm so fucking schizophrenic when it comes to Corgan related projects at the time of their release.

[SpFission]

Originally Posted by Dogfighter28

I've only heard "Sick, Sick, Sick" and thats better than most of Zeitgeist, so its probably that Era Vulgaris is the better album. I'm not jonesing to download it though.

Sick,Sick,Sick is what you call a boring rock song.

nice chorus: SICK, SICK, SICK!!! SICK SICK SICK!!!!

[smashapumpkin]

i too have only heard sick sick sick, and i just wanna say that it sucks anus

[redbull]

Originally Posted by SpFission

Sick,Sick,Sick is what you call a boring rock song.

nice chorus: SICK, SICK, SICK!!! SICK SICK SICK!!!!

as opposed to "I don't wanna fight, every single night?"

I expect this board to completely ignore the album as a whole and nitpick on things such as lyrics and artwork, while utterly refusing to do the same for zeitgeist.

[Dogfighter28]

Originally Posted by SpFission

Sick,Sick,Sick is what you call a boring rock song.

nice chorus: SICK, SICK, SICK!!! SICK SICK SICK!!!!

Its
"Sick sick sick
don't resist"

its not genius, but were homme's lyrics ever great?

[redbull]

moreover, Blues for the Red Sun and Welcome To Sky Valley utterly destroy everything Billy has released since Adore

[Dogfighter28]

Originally Posted by redbull

moreover, Blues for the Red Sun and Welcome To Sky Valley utterly destroy everything Billy has released since Adore

QFT

Those are two albums by legendary stoner metal band Kyuss, which Homme played guitar in, for you noobs.

[SpFission]

Originally Posted by redbull

as opposed to "I don't wanna fight, every single night?"

I expect this board to completely ignore the album as a whole and nitpick on things such as lyrics and artwork, while utterly refusing to do the same for zeitgeist.

That's not the chorus, you idiot.

[SpFission]

Originally Posted by Dogfighter28

QFT

Those are two albums by legendary stoner metal band Kyuss, which Homme played guitar in, for you noobs.

who are you calling a noob, lol.

you and redbull haven't even hit puberty yet.

[redbull]

Originally Posted by SpFission

That's not the chorus, you idiot.

my bad.
"I wanna love you when you're happy" is equally stupid.

[smashapumpkin]

qotsa is a good band but they have never evoked any feeling in me

[redbull]

Originally Posted by smashapumpkin

qotsa is a good band but they have never evoked any feeling in me

does Zeitgeist? It seems pretty vacant to me compared to the rest of the SP catalog

[SpFission]

Originally Posted by redbull

my bad.
"I wanna love you when you're happy" is equally stupid.

Do you know what a chorus is?

WTF man.

Talk about noobs.

[ChrisChiasson]

tl;dr

[Dogfighter28]

Originally Posted by SpFission

who are you calling a noob, lol.

you and redbull haven't even hit puberty yet.

well, if you don't know who Kyuss is you are a noob at life/music.

[redbull]

Originally Posted by SpFission

Do you know what a chorus is?

WTF man.

Talk about noobs.

see, they're doing it. Both songs have awful overall lyrics.

[AWorldDisowned]

Well if "sick sick sick" bores you, and I don't really understand why it would, you will be happy to know that no other song on the album remotely sounds like that. So if you don't like the single I think you still should give the album a listen. Actually the criticisms that I have heard or era vulgaris are mainly that the album DOESN"T sound more like sick sick sick, a song which I enjoy, but am still happy with the album not sounding that way. It seems likes a similar criticism to Machina in that TELG didn't represent Machina as a whole. I like the message of sick sick sick. consume consume consume. We're not supposed to be greedy are we? The Bible/ moral majority says we shouldn't, but we're some of the greediest people on the planet. I dunno, it doesn't seem so juvenile to me. It makes more of a statement than any other band I can think of at the moment. Plus it rawks!! How can you not rock out to this song?

[smashapumpkin]

Originally Posted by redbull

does Zeitgeist? It seems pretty vacant to me compared to the rest of the SP catalog

for me at least 3 tracks on zeitgeist have more feeling than anything ive ever heard from qotsa

[smashapumpkin]

btw i havent heard vulgaris but i have heard the previous lps

[Mablak]

QOTSA has miles of dumb lyrics. Every SP album has a few lines that make you raise your eyebrows, but that's about it.

[redbull]

Originally Posted by smashapumpkin

btw i havent heard vulgaris but i have heard the previous lps

it sounds nothing like them

[SpFission]

Originally Posted by redbull

see, they're doing it. Both songs have awful overall lyrics.

That's not the point. Stop avoiding the fact that you failed to compare the choruses of both songs correctly, because you couldn't even pinpoint it in the first place.....annnnnnnd the second place.

[ravenguy2000]

should we make a thread for all the other albums from this year that are > zeitgeist?

because the first two pages of the board will be nothing but that

[SpFission]

I have Songs for the Deaf and it's pretty good. I like about maybe 4 or 5 songs.