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Old 01-09-2017, 06:13 PM   #31
redbreegull
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I was in favor of them doing 2 movies, which was the original plan under del Toro I believe. I thought 2 films would have been a good amount of room for them to tell the whole story in full plus contextualize it all with a bit of info from the LOTR appendices (Unfinished Tales also has a whole segment on the "Quest of Erebor" which was written for LOTR but taken out of the final draft altogether).

The first movie wasn't even that bad, especially the beginning was done pretty well IMO. I have no idea what the fuck happened next but it was bad. the shit with orlando bloom and kate from lost is unforgivable

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:16 PM   #32
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Jackson is a just another dude, who like George Lucas, has an incredible amount of vision but very poor taste. The best movie was Fellowship where he was working in a constrained way with people looking over his shoulder and on actual budget. Things seemed organic and lived-in and real. The bigger the budget and the bigger the expectations, the worse the result.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:18 PM   #33
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https://media.giphy.com/media/11j6oiwfuzwu9G/giphy.gif

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:37 PM   #35
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Peter Jackson can choke on the flaming phallic shafts of winged and non-winged balrogs.

i hate to even think about those abominations the hobit films. they were utterly untrue to the spirit. of the book. its not some grand epic tale its a children's story jrr told his sons. total fucking sellout. and yes they added shit from the lotr appendixes loosely based of course.

what really pisses me off is that I really like the actors for bilbo and mithrandir. waste.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:39 PM   #36
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I think studio Ghibli should do the Hobbit but that's just a dream.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:45 PM   #37
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Really? I think the same dude did a bit of lotr too. i never checked them out for some reason.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:46 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
Peter Jackson can choke on the flaming phallic shafts of winged and non-winged balrogs.

i hate to even think about those abominations the hobit films. they were utterly untrue to the spirit. of the book. its not some grand epic tale its a children's story jrr told his sons. total fucking sellout. and yes they added shit from the lotr appendixes loosely based of course.

what really pisses me off is that I really like the actors for bilbo and mithrandir. waste.
I don't think they cast Bilbo correctly. He was a lot less true to the character than he seemed as played by Ian Holm. Even Ian Mckellan as Gandalf fell kind of flat in the midst of how bad the Hobbit movies were though. And seeing Chris Lee in that celluloid abomination just hurt my heart. Kind of surprised he even wanted to do it when they made it so Hollywood.

Legit though, the first 20 minutes or so of the first Hobbit movie were really good. I never dreamed that they would attempt the singing and plate throwing, let alone make it look both good and feel like the scene from the book. I thought they captured it really masterfully. But then here comes Dr. Who riding on a bunny sleigh and tripping on mushrooms. smdh

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:52 PM   #39
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Really? I think the same dude did a bit of lotr too. i never checked them out for some reason.
I think the Hobbit and ROTK cartoons were done by the same people, but the first LOTR cartoon was done by someone different who declined to do the sequel.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:55 PM   #40
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I think studio Ghibli should do the Hobbit but that's just a dream.
Quote:
The Hobbit is a 1977 animated musical television special created by Rankin/Bass, a studio known for their holiday specials, and animated by Topcraft, a precursor to Studio Ghibli...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hobbit_(1977_film)

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:40 PM   #41
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I never seen any of these cartoons... guess I have my weekend planned out.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:51 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
LOTR bridges highbrow lit and pop lit in a way that makes academics uncomfortable I think. They can do Chaucer and they can do Neil fucking Gaiman but somehow when those worlds aren't clearly separated it's a problem
I think you may find yourself looking for things that aren't there in LOTR. Themes, symbols, meanings, insights, historical value... but that's just Gormadoc "Deepdelver" Brandybuck's humble opinion.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:18 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by duovamp View Post
I think you may find yourself looking for things that aren't there in LOTR. Themes, symbols, meanings, insights, historical value... but that's just Gormadoc "Deepdelver" Brandybuck's humble opinion.
Weren't you just defending LOTR's merit to be critically analyzed with more "serious" literature? IMO there are a lot of interesting things to be analyzed even through the framework of what are popular critical lenses today. Themes of stewardship of the Earth and environmental destruction, especially as linked to the debasement and alienation of our own existence as living beings connected to our world. Tolkien's social liberalism and coexistence morality as both a vehemently anti-fascist call to arms contemporarily, and a starkly outdated and structurally racist model obsessed with racialism and ethnic character by today's standards. Or his truly weird concept of feminism/female empowerment (women are absent from his story altogether except in the rare example when they aren't, and they are basically deified. is worship a form of objectification? Is it feminist or anti-feminist to have a female protagonist subversively pick up a sword and go to war with the men?) Tolkien's universe as an essentially modernist reaction to WWI and industrialization (is it really so different than other literature of the time, perhaps just maligned and dismissed because it is fantasy?)

I dunno if it deserves to be taught in a 20th century lit class or something, but it's not just a two-dimensional adventure story either.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:24 PM   #44
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That's all very face value, which is sort of why it's considered pop lit. The question is does the material have the depth for critical analysis. I can't really answer that, and that's a debate in itself. But I don't think it challenges the greatest works of the English language in that regard.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:28 PM   #45
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What does it tell us about how Churchill handled the war? How did the Blitz affect Tolkein's narrative structure?

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:40 PM   #46
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The writing itself is a little pedestrian, too, if I remember correctly.

It's nice to read something like Heart of Darkness or Blood Meridian, finding yourself occasionally taken aback by the genius craftsmanship in some paragraph or sentence.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:40 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by duovamp View Post
That's all very face value, which is sort of why it's considered pop lit. The question is does the material have the depth for critical analysis. I can't really answer that, and that's a debate in itself. But I don't think it challenges the greatest works of the English language in that regard.
I agree with you basically, but I'm not sure what you mean by "face value," and "does the material have the depth for critical analysis?" I mean LOTR doesn't have the psychoanalytic aspect that characterizes most of the definitive works of the 20th century, but there are many layers and many lenses to criticize something through. A failure to think of critical things to say about it would be more indicative of a failure of the critic than a failure of the text. Virtually any text can be critically analyzed given the multitude of angles literary criticism is capable of. What I was saying is that I don't think academics think it is worth the time to analyze, not that it can't be.

 
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:42 PM   #48
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The writing itself is a little pedestrian, too, if I remember correctly.

It's nice to read something like Heart of Darkness or Blood Meridian, finding yourself occasionally taken aback by the genius craftsmanship in some paragraph or sentence.
yeah it wavers between really prosaic ("he went there, they said this, and alas! they all felt this") and extremely overwrought in its pretension to be a medieval fairy story or epic nordic poem. There are some really beautiful lines and sentiments in there though.

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:34 AM   #49
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Its good writing. Is it on the same level as Conrad or McCarthy?

Bitch, plz.

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:41 AM   #50
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Gormadoc "Deepdelver" Brandybuck does not know how to argue with this statement because it relies on knowing what "would have" happened which is impossible to know.

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:55 PM   #51
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Far out dude

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:57 PM   #52
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Another vote for the hobbit cartoon, don't forget 2 blaze tress every tiem they do it in the movie, or you may not understand the characters or themes properly

"The greatest adventure ... is what lies ahead ... "

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:02 PM   #53
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Before the movies Tolkien was the next Shakespeare but now that he's a pop star his "writing itself is a little pedestrian" and "really prosaic and extremely overwrought in its pretension." These same types of people dislike Nirvana because they "sold out."
is that true though? The Hobbit was a kids book and the author took two decades to publish a sequel, which turned out to be a thousand-paged tome full of made up languages. LOTR didn't really start to take off in popularity until the 60s when young hippies and potheads decided they identified with it and it was like groovy man.

Tolkien only lived 10 more years and never published anything else major on Middle-earth. I think LOTR was always curled away in a little niche of pop fiction. Yes, it is quite popular especially these days after the movies, but I don't think many people ever considered Tolkien to be a modern Shakespeare that's pretty out there

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:04 PM   #54
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and yeah the writing just isn't magnificent for the most part, it's hard to disagree with that. Tolkien was an etymologist who basically wrote fiction as a hobby. The Hobbit started out as something funny to make his kid laugh

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:16 PM   #55
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Been awhile since I cracked my red-leathered copy (last couple times I tried I couldn't help but see Elijah Woods huge ass watery hobbit eyes etc) but seems everything was "grey." Pale "grey" this and stony "grey" that and hills and skies of thickest "grey." His visual descriptive language, at least, struck me as underdeveloped

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 07:38 PM   #56
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I guess you can take issue with it if you don't like his writing style. It's definitely not a GRRRRR Martin rape-on-every-other-page style that is written for short attention span millennials. Some people like the slower pace, the back story, the immersive world that Tolkien has built and lets his story play out in way that is not written with a future screenplay in mind. It's not Dean Koontz or Stephen King; its a modern epic and I think that it excels at that and his style fits it perfectly.
Youvthink ASoIAF isn't immersive or has less backstory? He's literally called American Tolkien.

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:39 PM   #57
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Sleazy? Or like just things that actually happened in real life not in the children's fantasy of Tolkien?

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:52 PM   #58
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These same cretins would have espoused the literary prowess of Tolkien before all the movies came out, but now that the story is so popular it is au courant to shit on his writing.
It's probably a little generous to assume that anything above eleven percent of the people discussing Tolkien today had read the books before those movies came out, let's face it.

In any case, the movies only make Tolkien look like some sort of erudite demigod of caramelized genius by comparison.

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:23 PM   #59
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I guess you can take issue with it if you don't like his writing style. It's definitely not a GRRRRR Martin rape-on-every-other-page style that is written for short attention span millennials. Some people like the slower pace, the back story, the immersive world that Tolkien has built and lets his story play out in way that is not written with a future screenplay in mind. It's not Dean Koontz or Stephen King; its a modern epic and I think that it excels at that and his style fits it perfectly.
that's not at all what I meant though. I'm talking about the syntax, the literary devices, the dialogue, the flow of ideas, his overall command of written language as a vehicle to tell a story. Not the length of the book or the style or the amount of detail or the lack of rape and shitting around every corner

LOTR is probably my all-time favorite book fwiw. There is no other book like it, and there is no other universe like Tolkien's.

 
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:27 PM   #60
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Next to Tolkien, Martin is a hack. He is so obviously attempting to copy Tolkien but just makes it more sleazy by throwing in all the rapes and incest and "surpise!" deaths just for cheap thrills. Also, his story is now so fucked up by the last two shitty books that I don't even care anymore. The HBO series is now better than his writing.
Martin is an obvious example, but there seems to be an enormous amount of fantasy literature which completely apes Tolkien, and adding a lot of bodily functions to his pristine Catholic mythos to make it more "serious" or something also seems to be very popular.

 
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