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Old 10-11-2018, 08:25 PM   #61
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:34 PM   #62
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That's interesting, because I thought he and Lenny Kravitz looked rather alike, and it turns out they both have black mothers and Caucasian fathers.

But anyway, the current protocol is that if you're half black, you're as good as black. Thusly, Mariah Carey is black.
That has actually always been the "protocol." in the Reconstruction era in the US, people who were 1/8th black were called "octoroons" and were legally bound by segregation laws. Ever heard of Plessy V. Ferguson? We live in a white supremacist society where one drop of black blood has always been considered the same as being all black, and that means you get treated like shit. Someone who grew up looking like Barack Obama is black because people treat them like they are black. They are subject to the harassment and oppression all black people experience at the hands of a white supremacist system. So it's not some modern thing that mixed race people are often just considered black... that has always been the case, and even now when we don't have legalized racism, someone who doesn't look all white is not going to be treated with the entitlements and privileges of someone who does.

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:38 PM   #63
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That just makes the R&RHoF even more terrible than I already knew it to be.

> Focusing on the "rock n roll" part is the low-hanging fruit and it says more about what people think about women and non-white people than it does about the nominees.

That doesn't make sense. Hendrix is in there. Joan Baez is in there. I could appreciate them having trouble determining where blues or country western stops and rock starts. But again, that's why the R&RHoF is so terrible... they start with an exclusionary premise, only to discover later that they're bad people, but feel they must carry on anyway. I would burn it down if it were not mostly made of inflammable materials.
Rock music, the way you are defining it, is mostly a white male genre though. So pointing out the one popular black rock guitarist doesn't really defeat pale princess' point.

The way the hall of fame uses "rock and roll" is the big meaning, as in popular music which came from blues and rockabilly. That includes r&b, pop, hip hop, etc.

also it's one of the most irrelevant things imaginable so who cares

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:58 PM   #64
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That has actually always been the "protocol." in the Reconstruction era in the US, people who were 1/8th black were called "octoroons" and were legally bound by segregation laws. Ever heard of Plessy V. Ferguson? We live in a white supremacist society where one drop of black blood has always been considered the same as being all black, and that means you get treated like shit. Someone who grew up looking like Barack Obama is black because people treat them like they are black. They are subject to the harassment and oppression all black people experience at the hands of a white supremacist system. So it's not some modern thing that mixed race people are often just considered black... that has always been the case, and even now when we don't have legalized racism, someone who doesn't look all white is not going to be treated with the entitlements and privileges of someone who does.
I don't disagree, but that's tangential. This just started out as how closely Bob Marley resembled a bunch of other people on a particular list.

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Rock music, the way you are defining it, is mostly a white male genre though. So pointing out the one popular black rock guitarist doesn't really defeat pale princess' point.
pale princess' didn't really have a point:

"Focusing on the "rock n roll" part is the low-hanging fruit and it says more about what people think about women and non-white people than it does about the nominees"

she was saying that trying to keep the R&R HoF "rock and roll" focused is really just an attempt to exercise discrimination against black people and women. That's patently ridiculous, not much need be said about that. I'm a fan of Marvin Gaye in particular, but I won't pretend he was "rock and roll".

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The way the hall of fame uses "rock and roll" is the big meaning, as in popular music which came from blues and rockabilly. That includes r&b, pop, hip hop, etc.
From what I can tell, everything about the R&R HoF is about the genre known as "rock and roll" - except for a few particular inductees, who, I'm beginning to sense, were chosen for extrinsic reasons.

Last edited by MonumentsRocks : 10-11-2018 at 09:03 PM.

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:02 PM   #65
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obvious troll is obvious

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:28 PM   #66
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From what I can tell, everything about the R&R HoF is about the genre known as "rock and roll" - except for a few particular inductees, who, I'm beginning to sense, were chosen for extrinsic reasons.
"rock and roll" didn't always exclusively mean what you seem to think it always has

do some research on where the term came from and how it was used in the late 40s and 50s. I think you'll find it was used broadly to refer to any number of genres which came from blues, country, rockabilly, folk, gospel, roots music turned commercial, and even jazz

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:34 PM   #67
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obvious troll is obvious

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:38 PM   #68
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How dare he shit on Ms. Jackson


 
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:46 PM   #69
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"rock and roll" didn't always exclusively mean what you seem to think it always has

do some research on where the term came from and how it was used in the late 40s and 50s. I think you'll find it was used broadly to refer to any number of genres which came from blues, country, rockabilly, folk, gospel, roots music turned commercial, and even jazz
I'm certain most people appreciate that rock and roll owes its roots to multiple genres and that it didnt materialize out of thin air, but the stated purpose of the R&RHoF is to "celebrate the musicians who founded, changed and revolutionized rock & roll", so based on what you're saying, a non-"rock and roll" artist who would fit this description would be someone whose music either is rock and roll, or directly led to rock and roll. Most of the people listed whose relation to rock and roll is tenuous came along well after rock and roll was an established genre.

I know people who are racist or sexist frequently use some side issue to further their agenda, but the truth is I think it is insulting to Aretha Franklin and the others to essentially be made into "token blacks" on account of "rock and roll" being predominantly undertaken by white musicians, and the bad politics that stem from that.

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:47 PM   #70
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I'm certain most people appreciate that rock and roll owes its roots to multiple genres and that it didnt materialize out of thin air, but the stated purpose of the R&RHoF is to "celebrate the musicians who founded, changed and revolutionized rock & roll", so based on what you're saying, a non-"rock and roll" artist who would fit this description would be someone whose music either is rock and roll, or directly led to rock and roll. Most of the people listed whose relation to rock and roll is tenuous came along well after rock and roll was an established genre.

I know people who are racist or sexist frequently use some side issue to further their agenda, but the truth is I think it is insulting to Aretha Franklin and the others to essentially be made into "token blacks" on account of "rock and roll" being predominantly undertaken by white musicians, and the bad politics that stem from that.
yeah you aren't listening to what I'm saying at all

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:51 PM   #71
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yeah you aren't listening to what I'm saying at all
You're saying we can pretend a modern jazz musician is "rock and roll" just because there's a genetic spec of classic jazz in rock music. You want 'what you want' to be true.

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:59 PM   #72
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You're saying we can pretend a modern jazz musician is "rock and roll" just because there's a genetic spec of classic jazz in rock music. You want 'what you want' to be true.
...no. do you have comprehension problems?

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:59 PM   #73
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or maybe you've just been reading too much music journalism

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:05 PM   #74
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Monuments, don't bother man... You're arguing with a troll.

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:06 PM   #75
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That's not much of a counterpoint, but if that's where we leave off, I guess that's where we leave off.

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:08 PM   #76
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You are using "rock and roll," a very loose and poorly defined term which has meant different things to different people in different times, to mean what is more commonly just called ROCK in contemporary parlance. The end.

also it doesn't matter, NO ONE takes the hall of fame seriously except like your old dad and the corporate guys who put the event on

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:08 PM   #77
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That's not much of a counterpoint, but if that's where we leave off, I guess that's where we leave off.
redbreegul gets off on the drama. He'll ignore any good points one makes in an attempt to try and act righteous.

Take it from me (someone with experience), it's not worth your time trying to enlightening him.

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:10 PM   #78
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redbreegul gets off on the drama. He'll ignore any good points one makes in an attempt to try and act righteous.
as if you'd ever made a good point through which you could experience such a phenomenon

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:27 PM   #79
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so many things i want to MANSPLAIN right now

 
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:47 PM   #80
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They will find a way to induct Janet Jackson and LL Cool J over the Cure. They love those big names even if they aren’t technically rock and roll.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:06 AM   #81
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Monuments has a point though.

If Billy Corgan was black, Smashing Pumpkins would already be in the HOF.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:17 AM   #82
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Billy Corgan's problem lies within his consistency of output. Billy released 2 great, culturally important albums... Aside from that all the releases range from pretty good to shit.

To have the privilege of being in the hall of fame, you need a longer run of artistic dominance...

There's a few recent exceptions, GnR, Sex Pistols ETC... But Corgan's failed to further his career... His odds of the hall of fame are likely only slightly better than The Counting Crows and Collective Soul.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:13 AM   #83
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"Focusing on the "rock n roll" part is the low-hanging fruit and it says more about what people think about women and non-white people than it does about the nominees"

she was saying that trying to keep the R&R HoF "rock and roll" focused is really just an attempt to exercise discrimination against black people and women. That's patently ridiculous, not much need be said about that. I'm a fan of Marvin Gaye in particular, but I won't pretend he was "rock and roll".
LMAO are you for real? not what I was saying at all! I meant neckbeards like you bitch about pop/r&b/hip hop artists being inducted into the HOF due to your own overt/covert racism/misogyny.

I bet you like "all kinds of music except rap and country" and that you have "one black friend so not racist." Do you have a daughter, so you "can't possibly be misogynist" as well?


Man, this thread got racist AF.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:15 AM   #84
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Billy Corgan's problem lies within his consistency of output. Billy released 2 great, culturally important albums... Aside from that all the releases range from pretty good to shit.

To have the privilege of being in the hall of fame, you need a longer run of artistic dominance...

There's a few recent exceptions, GnR, Sex Pistols ETC... But Corgan's failed to further his career... His odds of the hall of fame are likely only slightly better than The Counting Crows and Collective Soul.
This is the most I've agreed with you in ages, fuzzy. Keep it up.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:17 AM   #85
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Billy Corgan's problem lies within his consistency of output. Billy released 2 great, culturally important albums... Aside from that all the releases range from pretty good to shit.

To have the privilege of being in the hall of fame, you need a longer run of artistic dominance...

There's a few recent exceptions, GnR, Sex Pistols ETC... But Corgan's failed to further his career... His odds of the hall of fame are likely only slightly better than The Counting Crows and Collective Soul.
Consider Pearl Jam, who did their R&RHoF worthy work between '91 and '94, but probably due to Eddie Vedder's sheer charisma, they remain popular in perpetuity. Billy Corgan has the exact opposite problem. He has an anti-charisma that drives any good will he generates into a ditch instantly. You have Eddie Vedder and Billy Corgan, both from Chicago, Eddie Vedder is considered a favorite son while Billy Corgan is a black sheep. The R&RHoF was tripping all over themselves to get Pearl Jam in there, but SP probably never even makes the long list, let alone a shortlist.

Another revealing thing about the R&RHoF, when they inducted Pearl Jam, they excluded the drummer who was with the band for their three peak sales albums, but included the drummer who was with them for their more recent, worst selling albums. It could be speculated that Eddie Vedder called the shots and decided whether the new drummer or the old drummer got in, but that would mean the subject of history was permitted to rewrite their own history, which is fucked up and it damages the integrity of the award, for anyone who cares about integrity, which obviously isn't many people, sadly. The moral of the story is that even though they claim it's about what a band represented ~25 years ago, it's really about what that band represents now.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:20 AM   #86
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and SP made much more exciting music and I think it's totally related to Corgan being a wacko, the whole thing is just ironic because dude wants it

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:11 AM   #87
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Actually went to HOF in August they play a video showing how rock n roll was created by black people before you go in. It actually Even points out how people think it started with Elvis & such ..but the black blues musicians actually started it. Also SP has a few small items in the Chicago display.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:14 AM   #88
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there was no SP stuff when I was there in 2006

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:18 AM   #89
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there sure was a lot of trash in the lake tho

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:48 AM   #90
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I guess when you continue to put out new work, there is always the risk that people will realise your earlier success was actually a fluke.

He should have stopped at MCIS and gone down in a blaze of glory

Using that phrase made me wonder if Bon Jovi are in the HOF and LOL they are

This is now officially a Bon Jovi thread



Richie Sambora was kinda hot, back in the day

 
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