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Old 10-18-2018, 12:59 AM   #181
FoolofaTook
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JESUSNEEDSASHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:59 AM   #182
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ilp is close. only tsp started sucking right after to sheila and before ava adore.

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:30 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks View Post
There it is. Accepting Corgan's new work as "good" would serve to degrade your group identity. Even if you like the music, you won't be inclined to admit it.



I said if even one person likes it, it's good. That's not exactly high praise, and it's not meant to be.

I don't think Billy was trying to make music is fans would hate, and the fact that he was upset by the negative reaction suggests as much, but when he's accused of being lazy, or pandering to the masses, that's what is implied. As a listener, I try to appreciate where a musician is coming from, even if I don't necessarily enjoy what they've created.
This is Billy, right?
I mean .... It is right?

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:35 AM   #184
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I dedicate this classic Pumpkin's track to this thread and present company https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-hFB3Cy8J4
Wow. Great track.

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:15 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks View Post
There it is. Accepting Corgan's new work as "good" would serve to degrade your group identity. Even if you like the music, you won't be inclined to admit it.

I said if even one person likes it, it's good. That's not exactly high praise, and it's not meant to be.

I don't think Billy was trying to make music is fans would hate, and the fact that he was upset by the negative reaction suggests as much, but when he's accused of being lazy, or pandering to the masses, that's what is implied. As a listener, I try to appreciate where a musician is coming from, even if I don't necessarily enjoy what they've created.
I've been one of the most vitriolic posters about Corgan, but I still listen to everything he puts out, and a lot of it I like... I even like Being Beige and parts of Teargarden which Netphoria widely hates. I really like Silvery Sometimes. Lots of us here do.

But even the stuff I like I wish was produced more in keeping with the 90/early 00's stuff. It would just sound better, and that isn't a subjective thing. It isn't Netphoria that says he's lazy and pandering to the masses - he has literally said this is why his songs are mixed how they are, it's why his recent output is short 3 minute pop songs. Oceania didn't fail because it was long-form, it did reasonably well, but the drums were bad and the songs were kinda weak.

Netphoria is the discerning part of the fanbase that has been increasinlgy perplexed and alienated by the artistic or attempted commercial directions of the band, and the impact that has had on song-writing, production and vocal style.

I think most of us can separate the art from the artist, but Billy does himself no favours in the media. He's like a split-personality:

Self-deprecating, rational person struggling with trauma.
Egotistical spiritualist and conspiracy-theorist.
Aspiring but misguided businessman.
Arrogant, abusive arsehole, hypocritically, vindictive.
Surly teenager.

He appears to genuinely look down on his fans, whether they're totally on-board in which case he thinks he's a high power, and will still diss them on instagram, or critics who "aren't real fans". He does this to other bands too.

Netphoria is intelligent fans reacting against the absurd, perhaps-tragic-possibly-cynical actions of an imploding egostist.

Last edited by Woody : 10-18-2018 at 05:23 AM.

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:19 AM   #186
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How emo

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:21 AM   #187
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How emo
CUT MY LIFE INTO PIECES

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:26 AM   #188
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Netphoria is the misunderstood moral compass of all Smashing Pumpkins fanbases.

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:28 PM   #189
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it's hilariously obvious that MonumentsRocks is Click Clack Cluckett


 
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:34 PM   #190
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CUT MY LIFE INTO PIECES
You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:45 PM   #191
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Imagine being a person who got off the "SP train" because of MCIS & not like, Zeitgeist

LOLOL!

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:52 PM   #192
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I can get why not everyone loves Adore but I don't get why anyone would say it "sucks"

Machina I love but could still understand why that criticism would get thrown around

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:10 PM   #193
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Hey MonumentsRocks, shouldn't you be changing your name soon to ShinyandOhSoBrightVol1NoPastNoFutureNoSunRocks?

Last edited by Zer0 Hour : 10-18-2018 at 03:18 PM.

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:37 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Mals Marola View Post
Imagine being a person who got off the "SP train" because of MCIS & not like, Zeitgeist

LOLOL!
when I was 14 my guitar teacher told me he was really into Gish and SD when they came out and he followed the band around on tour, but when MCIS came out he hated it and stopped listening to them

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:42 PM   #195
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Just seems arbitrary to me. If you made the Gish -> Siamese transition, why jump ship on Mellon Collie? I guess the changes between those albums probably seemed way more drastic in pre-Adore days, much less pre-SP2

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:50 PM   #196
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yeah I don't get it either

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:55 PM   #197
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Wonder how many left just cos of bald bollsworth

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:09 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks View Post
As a listener, I try to appreciate where a musician is coming from, even if I don't necessarily enjoy what they've created.
So do I. Every time. But if I feel something is lacking or needs improvement, I can't just shelve that part of the work and go "well it's really good if you consider what they were going for as opposed to what the end result was". I have to take the whole picture into account, warts and all.

Point in fact, this thread got me thinking it was time to re-evaluate Oceania and see if what I thought about it last time still held up - that it was a halfway decent effort that had a few really significant and glaring problems. So I threw it on last night while travelling in the cold, front to back, and as often as not I found myself musing over how good I thought a particular part was as I was how much one was lacking. Just shit like:

"God right on lol"
"The call-response pattern of the guitars in Panopticon is still my favorite part of this album."
"Nice transition to the acoustic guitar at this point."
"Fuck, imagine what Jimmy could have done with this drum bit, he could have added a crushing buildup" (I found myself thinking this about fifteen-twenty times through the course of the listen).
"Now that he's said that parts of this album had to do with a failed relationship, I can kind of see it in the lyrics to Oceania, maybe Pinwheels. But I wouldn't have guessed that was what this or that was about, or that Pale Horse was about his mom, if he hadn't said so publicly - the lyrics are too guarded and overly poetic."
"Nicole's bass is really, really prominent and groovy on this album, and come to think of it, that's the only SP album where I can say the bass is a focal point and highlight. That's neat."
"Jesus, I think he's said that he's always on my side at least fifteen times in the last minute."
"This "Floating away I think I'll stay" section is actually really moving and delivered really well. And I love the electric lead here. That's great stuff".
"How the hell do you go from singing about being Special K to a really nice middle eight section like that? What am I supposed to be feeling here?"
Or
"Lovers as lonely as lanterns lost'...that's a pretty nice bit of imagery...but the synths are going BOOPADOOPADOOPADOOPADOOPEYDOOPADOOPEY over the whole fucking song and they're intrusive. If the synth strings were allowed more prominence and it were a real string section, it'd serve the song way better."
"Huh. The synths are as present on here as on the last track but they actually do serve it well here, as opposed to ODOH where it was just irritating. Pinwheels is overall pretty good. Not perfect, but good."
"I take back what I thought on my last listen about this album needing more bite and anger. What it needs is for the guitars specifically to have a bit more teeth at times. The overall detached and quasi-distant vibe is actually really great for a cold, windy day like this. This was probably the first time in ages where Bill tried to craft a little bit of proper atmosphere. Title track is still pretty damn solid. Holds up."
"Why the Christ did they slow down Inkless compared to the original mix?"
"Man, he sure does want that pale horse to come back a whole bunch."
"This is too long. It needed to be two tracks shorter, but I feel like I could choose from basically half the album to take them from. I can't really single one out except maybe ODOH. That's...not good."
"The lyrics can get really repetitive on a lot of songs through this thing but the simplicity actually kinda works for Wildflower."

And so on. So, yeah. I appreciate what they go for, but I just don't let it stop me from acknowledging faults.

Last edited by Shadaloo : 10-18-2018 at 02:14 PM.

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:20 PM   #199
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I actually love Oceania

It’s an 8/10

It’s just not a Pumpkins album and I don’t view it as so.

It’s a throwback to 70s prog and I adore it for that. It has a great atmosphere

Just not Pumpkins

In my head, I think of it as a Spirits in the Sky album

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:24 PM   #200
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I listened to it all the way through for the first time yesterday I agree it's not bad but not really Pumpkins either.

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:25 PM   #201
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I pretty much think of everything 2007-present as Billy solo albums. SP was 1988-2000 and that’s it. Really the band should have broken up in 1996 when Jimmy OD’d and Jonathan died. SP would have reached legendary status had they gone away at that point.

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:38 PM   #202
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I never got through all of Oceania

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:41 PM   #203
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I pretty much think of everything 2007-present as Billy solo albums. SP was 1988-2000 and that’s it. Really the band should have broken up in 1996 when Jimmy OD’d and Jonathan died. SP would have reached legendary status had they gone away at that point.
Didn't D'arcy tell Billy, he should do Adore as a solo record?

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:16 PM   #204
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I can get why not everyone loves Adore but I don't get why anyone would say it "sucks"

Machina I love but could still understand why that criticism would get thrown around
it "sucks" to me because that's not the type of music i like, especially coming from the same band after the incredible triad of (even pre-) Gish, SD, and MCIS. i don't mean it objectively is terrible, it's just when i believe the descent in quality began its spiral. nothing after the MCIS b-sides has recaptured the magic of the original sound with all the original members

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:22 PM   #205
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Just seems arbitrary to me. If you made the Gish -> Siamese transition, why jump ship on Mellon Collie? I guess the changes between those albums probably seemed way more drastic in pre-Adore days, much less pre-SP2
Agreed; Mellon Collie fits so perfectly with Siamese Dream. But I had a few friends who jumped ship over that album because they thought it had too many mellow songs. But I was like, "Did you not listen to TOASE? XYU? Jellybelly? Zero? Ruby?"

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:30 PM   #206
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I never got through all of Oceania
Ok but you actually enjoy Monuments

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:36 PM   #207
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Agreed; Mellon Collie fits so perfectly with Siamese Dream. But I had a few friends who jumped ship over that album because they thought it had too many mellow songs. But I was like, "Did you not listen to TOASE? XYU? Jellybelly? Zero? Ruby?"
I loved SD but didn't care for the majority of MICS at the time. It's hard to describe, but on SD Billy hadn't "made it big" yet, so there was a modesty and a "he's just like us" sort of vibe that fit with the grunge times, but in MCIS there's a confident swagger all over the place; his singing, doing a double disc concept album (which added the hassle of having to swap the CDs in the player), the smorgasbord of sounds across the album, it didn't fit with where I was at at the time. I didn't care for Adore much either for similar reasons, but by the time Machina came out Billy had been knocked down a notch from the relative failure of Adore, and again, Machina struck me as being more modest, even if that was all in my head. Nowadays I see that body of work completely differently.

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:38 PM   #208
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sup clay

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:39 PM   #209
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I swear I have this same shirt. So does Monte. You can see him sporting it in the Oceania lighthouse pic.













































































































































































Last edited by FoolofaTook : 10-18-2018 at 03:59 PM.

 
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:41 PM   #210
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machina mystery deepens

 
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