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Old 10-13-2018, 05:39 PM   #151
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I still really like Adore, but I verrrry rarely reach to put it on and listen front to back. It's super long. And heavy.

Crestfallen is such a weird one for me: even though I'm a guy who posts on Netphoria in 2018 who got Adore the day it came out and probably have listened to it over 100 times, I always forget "how it goes", if that makes sense. By no means one of my favorites from the album.

As for Appels - the other day it came up on shuffle in the car and my wife (who, again, is married to a dude who is on Netphoria in 2018 and is a good SP fan) said "are we really going to listen to this? Why is it spelled like that?" That song did NOT age well.
I actually think that song aged well, better than Batman did.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:57 PM   #152
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I actually think that song aged well, better than Batman did.
I actually think that song aged well. Better than the movie did.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 06:49 PM   #153
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I still really like Adore, but I verrrry rarely reach to put it on and listen front to back. It's super long. And heavy.

Crestfallen is such a weird one for me: even though I'm a guy who posts on Netphoria in 2018 who got Adore the day it came out and probably have listened to it over 100 times, I always forget "how it goes", if that makes sense. By no means one of my favorites from the album.

As for Appels - the other day it came up on shuffle in the car and my wife (who, again, is married to a dude who is on Netphoria in 2018 and is a good SP fan) said "are we really going to listen to this? Why is it spelled like that?" That song did NOT age well.
For me Crestfallen is a perfect pop ballad. I've always been more into ballad sp than rawk sp. Songs like Tear and Nite Mare exhaust me.

I love your wife. I've been saying Appels & Oranjes is corny and dated since like 2001 lol.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:17 PM   #154
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There's a few really dated tracks on Adore.

I admit there's some bonafide classics on the album: Ava Adore, Behold the nightmare, For Martha and Shame... But there's a TON of filler.

Like a track like this isn't anywhere near peak Billy Corgan



And there's just a lot of tracks like that on Adore.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:29 PM   #155
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I actually think that song aged well. Better than the movie did.
That song is such a mid/late 90s soundtrack throw-away. Big "epic" sounding track with cheesy synths mixed with guitars. Lyrics that are total bullshit. It sounds like an action figure.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 08:13 PM   #156
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I guess my point is, and I say this a professional critic, who are we to say what's "good art"?
Yeah but the claim was that popularity is a measure of quality

my point is simply that popularity is completely irrelevant and no conclusions ought to be drawn from it

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:04 PM   #157
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TEITBITE is a fun song with a cool video. Instead of seeming like dated crap, it's more of a time capsule of a specific era. A slightly cheesy era, but an era nonetheless.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 01:54 AM   #158
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All of those songs aged just fine. What ages any song is when the song uses particular synths or drum beats or production values that didnt really fit the music, but were popular at the time, so you might not have noticed, but now that "the sound" has fallen out of style it makes the mismatch suddenly apparent. A lot of 80's pop, for example, hasn't aged well because they went nuts with the power drums, synths and pads, saxophones and neo classical guitar solos. The influence of Nirvana came up earlier in the thread, their influence, on one hand, was to mark the end of all that.

I don't think Adore has "aged" because it was never especially contemporary. If you disagree, name some other popular tracks from around '97 that you think mirror the style of Adore, and sound dated by the same token.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 02:03 AM   #159
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Yeah but the claim was that popularity is a measure of quality

my point is simply that popularity is completely irrelevant and no conclusions ought to be drawn from it
You have to define quality when it comes to music. Do you mean playing in time? Do you mean thinking up creative chord changes? Unique singing? Even if you answer these questions though, it really just leads to a dozen more. There's not really a such thing as quality as it applies to music. There's just this kind and that kind.

Popularity means that a large number of people wanted to consume the product, which says a lot about the product. To say that you and your subgroup are right and everyone else wrong is the definition of delusion. Of course, it's so common and accepted in our society to dismiss what many other people like out of hand, as you would Pizza Hut, that you probably don't even realize you're part of very large, very delusional mob. Mention Nickelback and huge circlejerk spontaneously erupts on the spot.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:10 AM   #160
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Have you ever seen the clip of Blondie's inauguration? It is awkward as fuck. Old members literally pleading Debbie Harry to let them play.
I would love to see Shirley Manson not only introduce Blondie into the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame, but, someday, also the Smashing Pumpkins. Her fanlike passionate speech, her strong accent, her true assessment of the psychological chemistry of the band made the following acceptance speeches appear a highlight, better than Saturday Night Live.

“the members of Blondie also happen to be some of the loveliest, most self a facing people you could ever hope to meet. There’s no posturing, there’s no need for flash cars or flanks of body guards. When they turn up to play, there are no ridiculous demands, no outrageous riders, no blink, no flash, no ego. There’s just coolness and sweetness and integrity and grace. And that is what makes them so very precious, for they truly are a rare breed. They are great artists. But they’re also great people. Ladies and Gentleman, I take great pride in introducing you tonight the great incompatible Blondie!”




Clem Burke came up with his drum sticks to feel better speaking at so many people.

Chris Stein mumbled and thanked many people, but especially his former girlfriend Debbie Harry.

Jimmy Destri told, he had a lot of fun on the long road with the band, adding then a lot of bad things too.

Debbie thanked even the record companies and producers.

Gary Valentine reminded to have been on the first records and that a song from him brought the band their record contract.

And then Frank Infante pranked it all with an infantile, clumsy, even begging attempt towards Debbie and Chris to be part of the following live performance…

Nigel Harrison as the last speaker followed with a more elegant opinion on it:
“It’s nice to see everyone out of the court room. That’s the first positive thing. But I got to say, after you watched that footage of us tonight: I felt I was going to my own funeral. But it’s messed up for us, because we wanna play obviously. We were part of it. We were left to bleed, we were part of it, it sucks and welcome to Bingo Night!”




It might be understandable that Harrison and Infante were not invited by the rest of the group to play with them, as they had tried in 1997 at court to prevent to use the band name “Blondie” without them being band members.

But Jimmy Destri was one of the songwriters of the band, had even written their comeback hit “Maria”. He was forced to leave the band in 2004 for drug problems. Though he later told to be sober now, his attempts to rejoin the band failed.
They should at least have let him play at the Hall of Fame for his merits for the band. And for not suing…

Shirley Manson’s band Garbage played last year with Blondie as a double feature on an U.S. tour.




The Smashing Pumpkins should, as their last mentionable merit, top this performance. If they should ever land on the shores of Cleveland…

Last edited by Corgan's Bluff : 10-14-2018 at 06:49 AM.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:13 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks View Post
You have to define quality when it comes to music. Do you mean playing in time? Do you mean thinking up creative chord changes? Unique singing? Even if you answer these questions though, it really just leads to a dozen more. There's not really a such thing as quality as it applies to music. There's just this kind and that kind.
yes. in art there are only different values, not objective truth

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:09 PM   #162
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I don't think Adore has "aged" because it was never especially contemporary. If you disagree, name some other popular tracks from around '97 that you think mirror the style of Adore, and sound dated by the same token.
U2's Pop
Garbage Version 2.0
Tori Amos From the Choirgirl Hotel
Marilyn Manson Mechanical Animals

All VERY 97-98 sounding in a similar vein. Dated af.

Let It Come Down is more timeless than Adore lmao

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 02:12 PM   #163
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All VERY 97-98 sounding in a similar vein. Dated af.
Out of interest, how do you think Kid A (two years later) has aged?

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 02:43 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by pale_princess View Post
U2's Pop
Garbage Version 2.0
Tori Amos From the Choirgirl Hotel
Marilyn Manson Mechanical Animals

All VERY 97-98 sounding in a similar vein. Dated af.

Let It Come Down is more timeless than Adore lmao
Mechanical Animals mirrors Adore? I don't think so.

I don't agree with the concept of music aging anyway. People age, music doesn't.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:13 PM   #165
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Out of interest, how do you think Kid A (two years later) has aged?
IDK I haven't listened to it since like the mid-00s

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:38 PM   #166
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Mechanical Animals mirrors Adore? I don't think so.

I don't agree with the concept of music aging anyway. People age, music doesn't.
Sure it does. A flop album after a big one, like Adore. A lot of intersecting fandom. Casual listeners barely remember the one hit and when they hear Dope Show/Ava Adore they're like "oh yeah, that one."

100% music ages. Even stuff from earlier this decade can sound of its time - dubstep drops anyone? Hair metal, New Wave, Grunge, post-Grunge, even "millennial whoop indie" it's all dated. Dated isn't necessarily a bad thing and I say this as a new wave fan. What are those radio stations that play music from the 50s & 60s called? OLDIES! Elderly is even a genre!

Another way music can become dated is through the lyrics. The blatant homophobia in hip hop in the 80s & 90s. The misogyny in hip hop & metal. Axl's racism in Guns n' Roses' "One in a Million" is something so critiqued (and rightfully so) that the band left the song off the reissue of the album. A classic Christmas song like "Baby It's Cold Outside" is basically about roofieing a woman who says no.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:26 PM   #167
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Sure it does. A flop album after a big one, like Adore.
Mechanical Animals was a commercial success. It debuted at number one. It doesn't sound much like Adore at all.

If you play music from the thirties to someone who has never heard music before they're not going to say it hasn't aged well. The human need to document everything and the human concept of time places it in a certain historical context and projects an age onto it. If music aged it would also die ergo it does not age. Or something. Anyway, the point is, I respectfully disagree your highness.

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Another way music can become dated is through the lyrics. The blatant homophobia in hip hop in the 80s & 90s. The misogyny in hip hop & metal. Axl's racism in Guns n' Roses' "One in a Million" is something so critiqued (and rightfully so) that the band left the song off the reissue of the album. A classic Christmas song like "Baby It's Cold Outside" is basically about roofieing a woman who says no.
Those things still exist in music. Listen to more black metal.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:39 PM   #168
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To say that you and your subgroup are right and everyone else wrong is the definition of delusion.
it's the very definition of a fallacy to claim something is right because a lot of people believe it

it also contradicts everything else you've said

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:42 PM   #169
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Mechanical Animals was a commercial success. It debuted at number one. It doesn't sound much like Adore at all.

If you play music from the thirties to someone who has never heard music before they're not going to say it hasn't aged well. The human need to document everything and the human concept of time places it in a certain historical context and projects an age onto it. If music aged it would also die ergo it does not age. Or something. Anyway, the point is, I respectfully disagree your highness.
MA and Adore have certain sonic similarities because of the era they were released in though, and that is what I think Pale Princess is referring to.

I guess I would say that whether music has "aged well" or not really depends entirely on the listener's context. There is something about splashy, reverb-drenched drums, and chorusy guitars playing three note major chords which instantly screams 1980s, and it sounds dated. But if you didn't have the entire cultural context that big longtime music listeners have (like most people on this board), I'm not sure you would be able to identify in the same way that the music instantly sounds "cheesy," and trapped in another era. Modern music has largely rejected some of that production and playing style, which is probably why it sounds left behind or disconnected from the present to our ears, whereas other older artists seem more eternal because they tapped into something which is continually referenced even a long time later.

It's like fashion. Some styles seem perennial, others seem dated, and yet others were once considered dated but have come back around. Just depends on the cultural context, and it doesn't have to do with any innate qualities in the music, or clothes, or whatever we are talking about. Consider trying to sell people on high-waisted jeans in 2005, versus 2018. Different values and aesthetics are appreciated in different cultural contexts, and that is largely beyond the individual talent of whoever made the music.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:45 PM   #170
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it's the very definition of a fallacy to claim something is right because a lot of people believe it

it also contradicts everything else you've said
you guys are going in circles. there is no objectively good or bad taste. the ability to sell out arenas, the ability to get reviewed well by pitchfork, and the ability to cultivate a small but hardcore underground niche audience are all equally good and bad measures of quality... in that there is no way to measure it. It just has to do with what you or a group of people personally value.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:51 PM   #171
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Those things still exist in music. Listen to more black metal.
No thanks!

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:53 PM   #172
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MA and Adore have certain sonic similarities because of the era they were released in though, and that is what I think Pale Princess is referring to.

I guess I would say that whether music has "aged well" or not really depends entirely on the listener's context. There is something about splashy, reverb-drenched drums, and chorusy guitars playing three note major chords which instantly screams 1980s, and it sounds dated. But if you didn't have the entire cultural context that big longtime music listeners have (like most people on this board), I'm not sure you would be able to identify in the same way that the music instantly sounds "cheesy," and trapped in another era. Modern music has largely rejected some of that production and playing style, which is probably why it sounds left behind or disconnected from the present to our ears, whereas other older artists seem more eternal because they tapped into something which is continually referenced even a long time later.

It's like fashion. Some styles seem perennial, others seem dated, and yet others were once considered dated but have come back around. Just depends on the cultural context, and it doesn't have to do with any innate qualities in the music, or clothes, or whatever we are talking about. Consider trying to sell people on high-waisted jeans in 2005, versus 2018. Different values and aesthetics are appreciated in different cultural contexts, and that is largely beyond the individual talent of whoever made the music.


I love high waisted jeans. wouldn't have been caught dead in them in 2005

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:57 PM   #173
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pants in the mid 2000s really had some issues. I always dressed like a dork from the 90s though, so for me it was just a matter of patience until I naturally became fashionable again

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:07 PM   #174
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low-riders with thongs were a MOOD

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:26 PM   #175
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you guys are going in circles. there is no objectively good or bad taste. the ability to sell out arenas, the ability to get reviewed well by pitchfork, and the ability to cultivate a small but hardcore underground niche audience are all equally good and bad measures of quality... in that there is no way to measure it. It just has to do with what you or a group of people personally value.
popularity is just arbitrary

and some artists manage both accidental popularity and a cult fanbase

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:46 PM   #176
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popularity is just arbitrary

and some artists manage both accidental popularity and a cult fanbase
any judgement of artistic quality is arbitrary.


popularity obviously does not automatically equal good, but it is something with more obvious quantifiable aspects than what is "good," which is entirely subjective and means nothing in a communicable sense unless you define exactly what good means.

Last edited by redbreegull : 10-14-2018 at 09:11 PM.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:48 PM   #177
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low-riders with thongs were a MOOD
I remember the panic by parents and school authorities as girls began coming to school wearing their pants on their bikini line. it was a weird time for fashion. how could one even bend over in pants like that? or skinny jeans? wtf?

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:49 PM   #178
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you know what isn't arbitrary? the fact that BORIS is better than the other bands in the universe.

boom.

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:34 PM   #179
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It's okay Tooky this thread is now about jeans

 
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:36 PM   #180
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It's okay Tooky this thread is now about jeans
I'm ok with this, and I am ready to talk jeans

 
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