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10-28-2015, 05:55 PM | #1 |
Banned
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 6,310
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I was talking with my friend about Vampire Weekend and defending them......
by comparing them to the Police who he likes a lot. He thinks Vampire Weekend are rich privileged phonies who are appropriating black music. He thinks what they are doing doesn't just come naturally to them and that it's all very calculated.
I was telling him about how the Police were very similar in that some of them were from a privileged background and they were also playing Caribbean music. And Sting and Ezra Koenig were both teachers before they started their bands. And because of their teaching background they both tend to have songs that have lyrics with impressive vocabulary. |
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10-28-2015, 07:41 PM | #2 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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I don't know anything about Vampire Weekend but I have a few thoughts:
1) art is artifice. The idea that music just pours out as a reflection from the essence of your soul is ridiculous. It's all calculated and well-practiced and if it isn't it probably won't be good. 2) almost all modern music draws heavily from black American culture. Cultural appropriation as a concept is used so widely and indiscriminately, I can never even tell what people mean by it. Ultimately I would laugh at someone who seriously thinks it is wrong to draw on music you like because it comes from people with a different skin color unless you are doing it in some sort of blatantly disrespectful or mocking way 3) you're right about the police, a bunch of white boys playing faux-black music, but who cares and how is that any more cultural appropriation than white rappers or eric clapton and jimmy page lifting from robert johnson? the police even referenced the oddity of them playing Caribbean music with Regatta de Blanc which obviously means white reggae |
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10-28-2015, 07:50 PM | #3 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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I think there is a lot music that is very uncalculated and "essence of soul" but most people don't actually want to listen to something like that
PUNK Rock music from the very start was ripping of black artists and culture starting with the blues and then later picking up reggae and such Music tends to be best formed by oppressed groups |
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10-28-2015, 08:35 PM | #4 |
Virgo
Posts: 42,781
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a closer comparion to vampire weekend would be talking heads and not the police
david byrne said he consciously tried to not sing like a black man. just something to think about |
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10-29-2015, 03:27 AM | #5 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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I don't know, I think that something we value a lot in art is the appearance of effortlessness, or spontaneity. When we watch a movie we don't want to think about the actors or the director, we want to see something that seems like it is actually happening. We want the illusion to be immersive.
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10-29-2015, 09:05 AM | #6 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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Something like Smashing Pumpkins is almost certainly a constructed illusion with huge production budgets and a virtuoso guitarist and drummer and concept albums etc.
Something like The Damned was these guys fucking around and it happened to be great and trend setting |
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10-29-2015, 10:11 AM | #7 |
ILL KILL UR DOG
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 11,480
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If you think punk acts don't give a shit about their presentation you've got another thing coming
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10-29-2015, 10:14 AM | #8 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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Some do
A lot never did and it's not even about the presentation it's about the music itself |
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10-29-2015, 10:46 AM | #9 |
Minion of Satan
Location: "I'm a quivering collection of the worst and least helpful emotions: fear, anxiety, terror, paranoia, indigestion, dishpan hands..."
Posts: 7,765
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10-29-2015, 10:54 AM | #10 |
ILL KILL UR DOG
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 11,480
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I think the artifice comment is an oversimplification that may apply to a lot of music but not all. You see plenty of examples of people who can write great songs and say that they had their "antenna" up at the right time and the song doesn't even feel like it comes from them.
Now, having the right work habits, and methodically putting yourself in the right space to receive those transmissions is key. But it doesn't mean everything is calculated in the moment. |
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10-29-2015, 12:14 PM | #11 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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It is a total oversimplification because it's pretty well documented that a lot of famous groups had multiple people who had no idea what they were actually doing they just exerted their personalities through the medium
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10-29-2015, 12:29 PM | #12 |
Minion of Satan
Location: "I'm a quivering collection of the worst and least helpful emotions: fear, anxiety, terror, paranoia, indigestion, dishpan hands..."
Posts: 7,765
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you can not really know what you're doing (meaning not really mastering your instrument and songwriting basically) and still do something calculated.
documented by who? them? romanticizing. I just dont really believe that most musicians sit down to write a chord progression and and are like "omg this is just pouring out of me as an extension of my personality and emotions in ways i don't understand" actually i dont know, maybe some do, but i probably hate them. I'm talking about music, lyrics are different. Sometimes they are 100% real, sometimes they're calculated, sometimes they're real but also calculated, |
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10-29-2015, 12:37 PM | #13 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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I mean it's not difficult. This is not classical music. The great thing about guitars and rock music is that it's EASY
It is a genre of music that allows for an extension of personality very easily |
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10-29-2015, 12:40 PM | #14 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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Did The Ramones "master their instrument and songwriting"
Fuck no they didn't nobody in that band knew what they were doing |
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10-29-2015, 12:53 PM | #15 |
ILL KILL UR DOG
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 11,480
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i have definitely written music that was 100% trial and error and grasping at straws. i would like to improve in areas of music theory and composition but i havent had the time
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10-29-2015, 01:10 PM | #16 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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I think the Ramones were very very well practiced and precise in what they did.
I have experienced the "transmission from beyond" feeling when writing a song, where something just falls into place in a matter of a few minutes and you're like wow damn where did that come from but IMHO and in my experience that does not translate directly into something finished that will sound good to others or even to you the next day. I'm not suggesting there is no such thing as an inspired moment... but if you don't take that thing and practice it a hundred times, try it different ways, rack your brain to edit and improve and hone it, I don't think it is likely to come off as an effortless masterpiece so much as unfocused and amateurish. These punk bands that are getting mentioned, I think that the ethos of that kind of music is look at us we suck! But the Ramones or whoever didn't actually suck, it is a very convincing and well-played narrative. If they actually sucked we probably wouldn't be talking about them. Just my two cents. |
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10-29-2015, 01:13 PM | #17 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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like I think there is a reason they were the Ramones and not actually a group of teenagers playing in a garage, you know?
I also don't really agree that rock music is "easy" just because it is comparatively simple. Writing a song that stays with people is a serious work of craftsmanship. Writing a great pop hook, that's a skill. It's a craft. I don't believe anyone can do it. |
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10-29-2015, 02:08 PM | #18 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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There's so much evidence to the contrary though
Read like anything from anyone who knew them Listen to live shows It's not that they "sucked". But they did play very simple music not on purpose but because it was all they knew how to do. |
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10-29-2015, 02:12 PM | #19 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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And I think most great pop hits in rock were written by accident in like 15 minutes tops
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10-29-2015, 02:13 PM | #20 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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Simplicity does not equal unpracticed or unprecise though. I know what you are saying, I just think that them being able to come across like that is a testament to their artistry, not a testament to their lack of artistry
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10-29-2015, 02:14 PM | #21 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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I mean take Today for example, Billy says he wrote that in one sitting. I don't disbelieve him. But if you play today in an acoustic guitar, there's not much going on there. There are so many other levels of craftsmanship that went into it before it came out sounding the way it does on the album or live with the band.
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10-29-2015, 02:16 PM | #22 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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Which is why Smashing Pumpkins aren't that type of artist/band
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10-29-2015, 02:18 PM | #23 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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I think Ramones were good almost by accident and that's what's brilliant about it is what I'm saying
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10-29-2015, 02:20 PM | #24 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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10-29-2015, 02:24 PM | #25 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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That is a rad pop song
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10-29-2015, 04:07 PM | #26 |
Through Silver In Buds
Location: Centralia
Posts: 16,502
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10-29-2015, 04:38 PM | #27 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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who would have thought one of CW's insane comparison threads would spawn a philosophical conversation about the nature of music
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10-29-2015, 04:39 PM | #28 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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10-29-2015, 04:41 PM | #29 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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I mean it was just a random example
Just saying there are a lot of bands that don't fall into the category of really being calculated. I'm not even saying whether it's a good or bad thing it's just different |
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10-29-2015, 04:43 PM | #30 |
Braindead
Location: TX
Posts: 16,289
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and that you can't just equate having good songs with having skilled musicians
unskilled musicians have made a lot of good music sort of by accident, being with the right people at the right time |
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