3 prisoners dead at gitmo

[transluscent]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...6/11/GITMO.TMP

[talk show host]

"They have no regard for life, neither ours nor their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."

From a US General. Yeah...

[Nimrod's Son]

1. They killed themselves
2. THREE deaths like this since 2002.

[talk show host]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

1. They killed themselves
2. THREE deaths like this since 2002.

1. And of course their conditions had NOTHING to do with it, whatsoever

2. THREE REPORTED deaths like this since 2002 in ONE of MANY American prison camps where concern has been expressed about the treatment of prisoners and their rights.

[Nimrod's Son]

1. Wow, people in prison aren't happy with their lives? We need to change that!
2. So.. what exactly is your point?

[talk show host]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

1. Wow, people in prison aren't happy with their lives? We need to change that!
2. So.. what exactly is your point?

The answer to both your questions is the same. You're trying to rationalise this down to something people should just shrug at and forget about, whereas it actually seems to be pretty revealing of the current feeling in the world with regards to America's handling of terrorist suspects and the way in which they run their prisons for said suspects.

People in prison don't just kill themselves. The kinds of hell that article mentions is not just what happens in prison, it's a symptom of the way they're run. And trying to say it's only three in the last 4 years is pointless, because it's not just one incident, it's part of something bigger, which is what I mentioned before about how the US is handling terrorist suspects etc etc.

[I'm Hardcore]

Originally Posted by talk show host

People in prison don't just kill themselves.

yes, they do. Its called escaping the consequences. How can you be so sure that these guys werent guilty, and were being so unfairly treated in the prison? You cant, you're just assuming so.

[talk show host]

Originally Posted by I'm Hardcore

yes, they do. Its called escaping the consequences. How can you be so sure that these guys werent guilty, and were being so unfairly treated in the prison? You cant, you're just assuming so.

Is it so unreasonable to be suspicious? The US, and particularly that base, have some very questionable operating standards when it comes to this sort of thing.

[JokeyLoki]

The question shouldn't be about the conditions... conditions in a jail are supposed to be pretty bad. That's the point.

The question should be about the fact that these people have been detained for 4 and a half years without any kind of a trial.

[talk show host]

Originally Posted by JokeyLoki

The question shouldn't be about the conditions... conditions in a jail are supposed to be pretty bad. That's the point.

The question should be about the fact that these people have been detained for 4 and a half years without any kind of a trial.

Yeah I should probably have made that clearer. I was talking about the conditions, or perhaps circumstances of their arrest and detainment, rather then whether they had warm rooms and five star food every night. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by I'm Hardcore

yes, they do. Its called escaping the consequences. How can you be so sure that these guys werent guilty, and were being so unfairly treated in the prison? You cant, you're just assuming so.

How does one prove innocence without a fair trial?
Zacarias Moussaoui was given a fair trial.

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

1. They killed themselves
2. THREE deaths like this since 2002.

The realization that you're going to be locked up there with no trial for possibly the rest of your life probably takes a few years to sink in

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by talk show host

Is it so unreasonable to be suspicious? The US, and particularly that base, have some very questionable operating standards when it comes to this sort of thing.

Now you're just talkin' crazy. You don't ever ever question the government under any circumstance. Be sure to swallow everything they tell you, especially if it's the U.S. government and it involves any prisoners in any situation.

Seriously, how can people be mad at those who reacted with suspicion? Everybody should be suspicious about everything the government does, just to make sure they're doing their job well. Yeah, it's suspicious alright, so why not question this?

[benjamin619]

the people in Gitmo are probably so fanatically crazy, i dont know how you can even be sure they didnt kill themselves just to make a political statement: hey opposition, look what the U.S. forced us to do to ourselves.

many terrorists blow themselves up on crowded sidewalks, better that they should do it alone inside a cell. i dont understand any call to recognize this as having the tiniest significance.

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by benjamin619

the people in Gitmo are probably so fanatically crazy, i dont know how you can even be sure they didnt kill themselves just to make a political statement: hey opposition, look what the U.S. forced us to do to ourselves.

many terrorists blow themselves up on crowded sidewalks, better that they should do it alone inside a cell. i dont understand any call to recognize this as having the tiniest significance.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not

[Corganist]

I just think its funny that some of you guys seem to think that the unbearable thought of being locked up in these "horrible conditions" for "the rest of their lives" just happened to be too much for these three guys to take all at the same time. Isn't that just a bit coincidental? I mean, being despondent and killing yourself over your circumstances is one thing, but planning it out with others?

But nooooo, we can't take any suggestion that these guys might have planned this for some political end (like, say, getting bleeding heart American liberals to start rambling about the evils of Gitmo again). You can't say that they would have been crazy if that's what they were going for, seeing as so many of you reacted in the typical kneejerk anti-US way to this news.

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by Corganist

I just think its funny that some of you guys seem to think that the unbearable thought of being locked up in these "horrible conditions" for "the rest of their lives" just happened to be too much for these three guys to take all at the same time. Isn't that just a bit coincidental? I mean, being despondent and killing yourself over your circumstances is one thing, but planning it out with others?

But nooooo, we can't take any suggestion that these guys might have planned this for some political end (like, say, getting bleeding heart American liberals to start rambling about the evils of Gitmo again). You can't say that they would have been crazy if that's what they were going for, seeing as so many of you reacted in the typical kneejerk anti-US way to this news.

Yeah man, fuck those guys. One was all like 'lol I have this awesome way to get those liberals complaining about this place again!' and the other guys were all 'how dude' and the first guy said 'we just kill ourselves isn't that awesome?' and the others said 'totally man, I didn't want out of here anyway'. And then they killed themselves out of spite!! Poor US administration and their indefinite detention center :(

Three people killing themselves at the same time suggests a pact, yes. Funny how YOU automatically assume they're crazy terrorists who got together and decided they valued making the US look bad over their own lives. Because hey, it's not like going through with killing themselves required a certain amount of emotional strength, the kind you get from going through something with other people. Clearly they just intended to maximize publicity! "2006 is it?" 'Yep' "Better kill ourselves then eh" 'Yep'. The 'anti-US' sentiment comes from their general attitude towards these people - I mean they came straight out and called this 'a PR stunt'. 3 people have been rounded up, shipped off to a high-security prison, locked up for 4 years (so far) with no trial or pretense towards receiving one, and finally killed themselves quietly in their cells; and it's immediately waved aside as a 'PR stunt'. Nice to see you predictably bouncing up to defend the party line, as always

[Mayfuck]

you're going to make a shitty lawyer, corganist.

[Karl Connor]

even if i were in a minimal security "luxury" prison i'd still kill myself (unless i was gay, in which i hear prison isn't so bad). its fucking prison

[JokeyLoki]

Originally Posted by benjamin619

the people in Gitmo are probably so fanatically crazy

Sweeping generalizations for the win.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by DeviousJ

Three people killing themselves at the same time suggests a pact, yes. Funny how YOU automatically assume they're crazy terrorists who got together and decided they valued making the US look bad over their own lives. Because hey, it's not like going through with killing themselves required a certain amount of emotional strength, the kind you get from going through something with other people.

I'm not the one assuming anything. I'm just saying there's no reason to write off the possibility that there was more to these guys' decision than their so-called mistreatment by the mean old US government. Listen to yourself. "Emotional strength"? Its not like these guys were holding hands as they did this. They were in seperate cells, left to their own strength to go through with the actual act. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I really don't think that merely knowing a couple other guys are killing themselves in their own cells is really enough to give a person "emotional strength" necessary to go through with committing suicide. I think its plausible, if not likely, that more went into it their decision to do this at the same time than that. I mean, what was to keep the guys from backing out of the pact if all they were doing it for was moral support? I think people enter into these things with a little more conviction than "I'll do it if you'll do it."

The 'anti-US' sentiment comes from their general attitude towards these people - I mean they came straight out and called this 'a PR stunt'. 3 people have been rounded up, shipped off to a high-security prison, locked up for 4 years (so far) with no trial or pretense towards receiving one, and finally killed themselves quietly in their cells; and it's immediately waved aside as a 'PR stunt'.

I agree that its probably premature to characterize the suicide the way they did before investifgations can bear all that out. But I think its also just as premature to do what you're doing and play this "oh, their lives were so bad because of the US, of course they committed suicide" game.

Nice to see you predictably bouncing up to defend the party line, as always

1. Like you're so unpredictable.
2. As always, I only defend the party line when its attacked unfairly.

[JokeyLoki]

Corganist, do you think it's fair that they've gone 4 and a half years with no trial or even hope of trial?

[benjamin619]

Originally Posted by DeviousJ

Because hey, it's not like going through with killing themselves required a certain amount of emotional strength, the kind you get from going through something with other people.

nah. they probably thought they'd be surrounded by virgins by now. i bet it was a no-brainer.

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by Corganist

I'm not the one assuming anything. I'm just saying there's no reason to write off the possibility that there was more to these guys' decision than their so-called mistreatment by the mean old US government. Listen to yourself. "Emotional strength"? Its not like these guys were holding hands as they did this. They were in seperate cells, left to their own strength to go through with the actual act. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I really don't think that merely knowing a couple other guys are killing themselves in their own cells is really enough to give a person "emotional strength" necessary to go through with committing suicide. I think its plausible, if not likely, that more went into it their decision to do this at the same time than that. I mean, what was to keep the guys from backing out of the pact if all they were doing it for was moral support? I think people enter into these things with a little more conviction than "I'll do it if you'll do it."

You're not the one assuming anything? You went right into this with the attitude that the report was correct, and that they'd done this for political gain. Look at your talk of 'isn't that a bit coincidental? Planning it with others?!' Whatever you might want to say, that's blatant doubt and disbelief, and you're not equally accepting of all the possibilities at all. And 'so-called mistreatment' - dude, they've been locked up without trial for 4 years. Do you not understand what's wrong with that? Do you not see how this could affect people to the point of suicide?

People gain strength from all kinds of things, including the knowledge that other people are going through the same thing, whether or not they're physically present in the room. Suicide pacts can be fulfilled as a group or seperately, and obviously circumstances here would dictate the logistics quite heavily. Of course there's little point in me explaining this to you, since you've obviously dismissed the possibility to the realms of 'I think not'

Originally Posted by Corganist

I agree that its probably premature to characterize the suicide the way they did before investifgations can bear all that out. But I think its also just as premature to do what you're doing and play this "oh, their lives were so bad because of the US, of course they committed suicide" game.

Here's the thing - it's certainly possible this was some political stunt by some cold-blooded terrorists. I just think it's very unlikely. See, people commit suicide in prison all the time, usually because they can't take it anymore. Some people just aren't cut out for long-term incarceration. What we have in Guantanemo is a bunch of people who've been stripped of their rights, denied due process, and basically left to rot for all they know. Throw in the reports of sleep deprivation etc and you have a mentally destructive environment, and weaker people just won't make it. These conditions are exactly why people have a problem with the place, why these suicides are not a surprising development, and why the US's cold and clinical response was basically expected. It completely reflects their attitude towards these people as a whole

Originally Posted by Corganist

1. Like you're so unpredictable.
2. As always, I only defend the party line when its attacked unfairly.

The funny thing is, I wasn't attacking the party line. You just end up painting things that way. Liberals!

[LegendaryU2K]

Well they have nobody to blame but thierself.

Oh well.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by DeviousJ

You're not the one assuming anything? You went right into this with the attitude that the report was correct, and that they'd done this for political gain. Look at your talk of 'isn't that a bit coincidental? Planning it with others?!' Whatever you might want to say, that's blatant doubt and disbelief, and you're not equally accepting of all the possibilities at all.

I never said I was equally accepting of the possibilities. I think that the circumstances certainly point to the possibility of these suicides being a calculated move moreso than some kind of "Thelma and Louise" moment where they decided to all go down together because they were giving each other "emotional strength."

And 'so-called mistreatment' - dude, they've been locked up without trial for 4 years. Do you not understand what's wrong with that? Do you not see how this could affect people to the point of suicide?

Sure. And if it just were one guy that did it, or even three within the course of a week, then you might be able to say that the stress of the situation is breaking some of these guys. But the fact that they all did this at the same time, IMO, shows that there was something more significant going on than some kind of mere "I can't take it anymore!" sentiment.

People gain strength from all kinds of things, including the knowledge that other people are going through the same thing, whether or not they're physically present in the room. Suicide pacts can be fulfilled as a group or seperately, and obviously circumstances here would dictate the logistics quite heavily. Of course there's little point in me explaining this to you, since you've obviously dismissed the possibility to the realms of 'I think not'

It just seems to me that most suicide pacts people enter into are premised on something a little more than "My life sucks, and so does yours. I'll do it if you do too." There's usually something else added to the mix, be it religion, or just wanting to make a statement, or what have you. Maybe these guys just wanted to do this together to have some company on the way to wherever it is they're going, but it just seems odd to me that if things were nearly as bad as you say they were that they'd need each other to garner the emotional strength to go through with it.

Here's the thing - it's certainly possible this was some political stunt by some cold-blooded terrorists. I just think it's very unlikely. See, people commit suicide in prison all the time, usually because they can't take it anymore. Some people just aren't cut out for long-term incarceration. What we have in Guantanemo is a bunch of people who've been stripped of their rights, denied due process, and basically left to rot for all they know. Throw in the reports of sleep deprivation etc and you have a mentally destructive environment, and weaker people just won't make it.

That doesn't explain the flair for the dramatic these guys are showing. This wasn't the first mass suicide attempt to happen there. A bunch of guys unsuccessfully pulled a similar attempt a few weeks ago. (And got a pretty decent amount of press, for what its worth...) But the type of suicidal desperation you're talking about is not something you arrive at on a group basis. Its not something you talk about and plan with others. Don't you see the difference between an individual getting broken down by the situation and acting on it and a group deciding that they're broken down by the situation and acting on it? I don't see how you can consider them to be the same thing.

These conditions are exactly why people have a problem with the place, why these suicides are not a surprising development, and why the US's cold and clinical response was basically expected. It completely reflects their attitude towards these people as a whole

Or maybe its because the US knows the kind of people they're dealing with? Maybe these prisoners were made of sterner stuff than you're giving them credit for. Maybe they were not delicate butterflies who crumble under adversity. Is it not just as plausible to think that these guys were so strong-willed and defiant as to kill themselves as it is to think that their will had been broken? Its pure speculation either way, sure, but I don't think you can necessarily write off the US's response as some kind of typical dehumanization of their prisoners. They may have had very good reasons for their characterization of these suicides. They sure sounded sure enough about it.

[transluscent]

Originally Posted by North

www.sfgate.com

enough said.

it's the New York Times' article (yeah, I know we all hate it but its better than a bunch of fags)

[JokeyLoki]

Originally Posted by JokeyLoki

Corganist, do you think it's fair that they've gone 4 and a half years with no trial or even hope of trial?

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by Corganist

I never said I was equally accepting of the possibilities. I think that the circumstances certainly point to the possibility of these suicides being a calculated move moreso than some kind of "Thelma and Louise" moment where they decided to all go down together because they were giving each other "emotional strength."

So you are assuming something - you're assuming that these guys killed themselves for some other end, and seeing as you argued so vehemently against people decrying the official statement, you certainly sound like you believe that they did it for publicity.

Originally Posted by Corganist

Sure. And if it just were one guy that did it, or even three within the course of a week, then you might be able to say that the stress of the situation is breaking some of these guys. But the fact that they all did this at the same time, IMO, shows that there was something more significant going on than some kind of mere "I can't take it anymore!" sentiment.

How so? Suicide isn't an easy thing to go through with, that's why so many people try and fail at it. How do you figure that 3 people finding the strength to go through with it on separate days can be chalked up to sheer despair, but 3 people finding that strength at the same time - possibly after even talking to each other about it! - is some cold, calculated political manoeuvre by people who value their lives less than appealing to 'the liberals'

Originally Posted by Corganist

It just seems to me that most suicide pacts people enter into are premised on something a little more than "My life sucks, and so does yours. I'll do it if you do too." There's usually something else added to the mix, be it religion, or just wanting to make a statement, or what have you. Maybe these guys just wanted to do this together to have some company on the way to wherever it is they're going, but it just seems odd to me that if things were nearly as bad as you say they were that they'd need each other to garner the emotional strength to go through with it.

Uhhh, suicide pacts are usually the result of clinical depression - so no there there doesn't need to be 'something else added to the mix' at all. Incidentally, suicide is forbidden by Islam, so there's your religion angle.

Things have to be pretty bad for anyone to go through with suicide. Yet people do commit suicide in group pacts. So clearly people do need emotional support even when things are that bad. QED, Mr Corganist

Originally Posted by Corganist

That doesn't explain the flair for the dramatic these guys are showing. This wasn't the first mass suicide attempt to happen there. A bunch of guys unsuccessfully pulled a similar attempt a few weeks ago. (And got a pretty decent amount of press, for what its worth...) But the type of suicidal desperation you're talking about is not something you arrive at on a group basis. Its not something you talk about and plan with others. Don't you see the difference between an individual getting broken down by the situation and acting on it and a group deciding that they're broken down by the situation and acting on it? I don't see how you can consider them to be the same thing.

Wow, a large group of people all in the same desperate situation, with several of them contemplating suicide? Unthinkable! And several of them talking about it, and deciding to go through with it in the same way many other people do in other non-Guantanemo suicide pacts? Get right out of town.

Originally Posted by Corganist

Or maybe its because the US knows the kind of people they're dealing with? Maybe these prisoners were made of sterner stuff than you're giving them credit for. Maybe they were not delicate butterflies who crumble under adversity. Is it not just as plausible to think that these guys were so strong-willed and defiant as to kill themselves as it is to think that their will had been broken? Its pure speculation either way, sure, but I don't think you can necessarily write off the US's response as some kind of typical dehumanization of their prisoners. They may have had very good reasons for their characterization of these suicides. They sure sounded sure enough about it.

Right - so the US sounds sure about something, so they must be right. Incredible logic there man. Whatever they say must be true, or why would they say it? This is *exactly* what I was talking about when I said you jump up to defend the party line.

This isn't the US weighing in with an opinion on a neutral subject. This is a situation created by the US, roundly condemned, which the US government has consistently sought to portray in a better light. Afghanistan was invaded by America, enemy combatants were captured, rounded up and shipped to an internment camp on foreign soil, and arbitrarily stripped of their rights under the Geneva Conventions. They have since been held and interrogated with no respect to due process - and this has all been justified by 'The War On Terror'. The US has faced huge criticism over Guantanemo, and rightly so. So no, any statements the US makes defending what happens there should be treated with suspicion. What's ironic is the claim that the suicides were 'a PR move', when that's exactly what the claim itself is. Calculated irony, of course

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by JokeyLoki

Corganist, do you think it's fair that they've gone 4 and a half years with no trial or even hope of trial?

And yeah answer this too because I'm going to get around to it sooner or later. You seem to be fine with assuming none of these guys are innocent people, even though they haven't been allowed to stand trial. That strikes me as very odd for someone who's moving into law professionally