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Old 09-05-2017, 08:39 PM   #241
soniclovenoize
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No my wall of text was bigger than yours, so I'm more right.

 
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:44 PM   #242
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I agree that Judy intercepted Laura as Cooper tried to rescue her. Right before she disappeared we heard the crackling/scratching sound which emanates from the phonograph when the Giant tells Cooper, "listen to the sounds" at the very beginning of the season.

However, I don't think Cooper was trying to save Laura selfishly. The very first clues the Giant gives Cooper are about him going into the alternate timeline and Diane forgetting him "Richard and Linda 430." I believe what he was trying to do was a plan to somehow defeat Judy or contain her or something by retrieving Laura. Everything that happened in terms of the set up of these characters was arranged by the Giant and Mike and other forces (e.g. Margaret's log), so it's hard for me to believe Cooper just went rogue to save Laura

He did tell the Giant he understood completely, and maybe he actually didn't cause he seemed hella surprised, or maybe the Giant fucked up, OR maybe the story continues and this is just the last we see of it.

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 11:42 AM   #243
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Yea today I'm starting to think maybe the Giant created the alt reality to lure Judy there with Laura as the bait so when the "two birds one stone" (save Laura- defeat Judy) happened, it wouldn't destroy the real Twin Peaks and the portals to the Lodge.

But when Laura disappeared she screamed the same sample as in the red room. So who snatched her and who sent her to this new reality? Ugh.

IDK!

Also I wasn't suggesting Cooper went rogue, but his obsession with Laura is part of a selfish desire based on tragedies from his past. It's not 100% altruistic.

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 03:51 PM   #244
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I was actually thinking maybe Judy snatched Laura and hid her in the alternate timeline to protect herself, the Tremonds being a sign of Judy's/Black Lodge interference? Sarah Palmer was stabbing the shit out of Laura's picture when Cooper rescued her, but she was unable to harm the photo. Laura is impervious to Judy so the only solution is to put her somewhere else, a different world. Laura's scream could be a sign that Judy is present or is meddling or something (see the theory that "Jow Day" means "scream").

I initially thought I saw that young Laura was actually played by someone named Carrie Page but maybe the credits were just fucking with us or maybe I misread, cause it seems maybe it was a CGI Laura or something. HOWEVER I read one theory that Carrie Page is the last missing piece of Laura's diary /mind blown

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Old 09-06-2017, 04:13 PM   #245
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My initial thought was it was a play on words. Carrie page = carry page.

Cue Bob Seger.

I think if Judy transported her I'm not sure if it/she has the power to create those alternate worlds. I think that was the Giants creation, or perhaps just the results of Cooper saving Laura from her original fate this is the new one that was automatically created, or both.

Can an "extreme negative force" create worlds at will? My gut says no yet the atom bomb experiments ripped things open before, only not by choice or force of will. Those experiments were part of Jack Parsons and Hubbards magick summoning of the spirit Babylon/Mother/Judy.

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Old 09-06-2017, 04:57 PM   #246
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:06 PM   #247
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Lol

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:30 PM   #248
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Oh also


 
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Old 09-06-2017, 06:00 PM   #249
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haha this is my favorite meme:


 
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Old 09-06-2017, 06:01 PM   #250
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also destroy meme culture

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 06:57 PM   #251
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I think the most basic reason the dream interpretation bothers me is that I feel that it undermines the entire point and focus of Lynch's obsession with dreams, which is that dreams are not just dreams. Saying it was all literally a dream which only 1 character experienced in his head flies in the face of everything we have been told and shown about the way dreams operate in not just Twin Peaks, but in Lynch's work in general. Again, the original dream of the red room was a dream Cooper and Laura shared although they had it weeks apart (and Cooper had it after she died), and then that dream itself turned out to be both a dream AND a timeless reality in a different universe. I'm just not buying that we went from that to "it was literally just a dream"

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 07:03 PM   #252
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a few things began to make sense today so i copied them from the chat in case anyone else is interested:

ok now that the spirits have throttled me


[6:57]
the scene where coopers face was super imposed over the happenings at the sheriffs station and he says "i hope to see you all again"


[6:58]
he realizes he is about to change the past, therefore meaning none of this will have happened. he will have never have met any of these people because Laura never died.


[6:58]
That is the true goodbye to Twin Peaks


[6:59]
When he steps out of the Lodge and is greeted by Diane, she has just stepped out before him. This is what would have happened if the previous Laura Palmer case never happened and he DID pick up on that romantic spark with Diane


[6:59]
Cooper retains all of this knowledge because it is his reality


[7:01]
In the car, he tells Diane they might not recognize each other once they cross. She doesn't. He does. He is now an FBI man with 25 years of experience as if Laura Palmer never existed, but he retains the memories of his tulpa/doppelganger.


[7:01]
Which is why he seems so confused and such an infusion of Dougie and Mr C in Judy's diner.


[7:02]
He's not Richard, but Diane thinks he is, so this is his clue and our clue to this being an alternate dimension.


[7:02]
Judy cannot destroy Laura Palmer, so the Giant sends her to different realities


[7:03]
And, true to form, Cooper follows.



[7:03]
Coopers face being superimposed represented his timeline stopping


[7:04]
or "that" timeline stopping


[7:04]
Also there are some weird clues about his FBI pin being upside down in the Odessa timeline


[7:05]
He wears his pin at the beginning of S3, and at the end, and then in the new timeline it is upside down.


[7:05]
Dougie does not wear the pin.


[7:06]
Also with that weird hand-shaking motion that ruffled the curtains is just another clue that he was at work inside the Lodge, and not just some vegetable.


[7:06]
He was working with Mike to create tulpas and such, and has learned ins and outs of the Lodge and how it works, which is partially why he has retained his memory once jumping timelines and Diane did not.


[7:07]
Also the sex with Diane was reminiscient of the Woodsmen trying to revive Mr. C, in the sense that I think it was a ritualistic act.


[7:07]
It was done in order to trigger Judy some way.


[7:07]
Which worked.


[7:08]
Or to trigger something


[7:08]
Which opened a portal for Cooper. Difficult to say if Diane made it through or even if she knew what would happen.


I can only recall that originally Lynch did not want to disclose Laura's killer. Now that he was given 80 million dollars and full creative control I don't expect him to wrap everything up nicely. I don't think that Laura's scream "vanquished" Judy and ended that reality.


[7:13]
Or if it did, she certainly didn't wake up in her bed that same morning and not die that night.


 
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Old 09-06-2017, 07:25 PM   #253
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Old 09-06-2017, 07:33 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
I think the most basic reason the dream interpretation bothers me is that I feel that it undermines the entire point and focus of Lynch's obsession with dreams, which is that dreams are not just dreams. Saying it was all literally a dream which only 1 character experienced in his head flies in the face of everything we have been told and shown about the way dreams operate in not just Twin Peaks, but in Lynch's work in general. Again, the original dream of the red room was a dream Cooper and Laura shared although they had it weeks apart (and Cooper had it after she died), and then that dream itself turned out to be both a dream AND a timeless reality in a different universe. I'm just not buying that we went from that to "it was literally just a dream"
You didn't read what I posted, did you? Read it again. Most of your complaints don't apply here, sorry.

What bothers me about the "Pocket Dimension" theory is that it flies in the face of Lynch's work in general. This isn't fucking Star Trek. It's David Lynch. You might have a character that isn't an actual person, but is a physical manifestation of an emotion of a character (is that what Linda/Diane saw outside the Motel? I think it is...). You might have long narratives that turns out to not really exist but in the mind of another character (what else is Coop's head transposed on top of an overly surreal ending?).. But no, quantum theory and the butterfly effect is not here, sorry.

And let's not forget about the logical inconsistencies of the Pocket Dimension Theory. If Judy could just send whomever she wanted into this dimension, why didn't Sarah Palmer just collect pictures of her enemies and send them all into pocket dimensions? Why even bother with Laura Palmer? Why not print out pictures of Google Earth and just send everyone on the planet to their own nightmarish Pocket Dimension and just collect their garmonbozia until the end of time? It makes no sense. I know you want it to make sense. But you are simply not following the clues Lynch left in the show. You gotta go by what is shown, not what you want it to be.

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 07:43 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soniclovenoize View Post
You might have a character that isn't an actual person, but is a physical manifestation of an emotion of a character (is that what Linda/Diane saw outside the Motel? I think it is...).
This is what tulpas are.

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 07:48 PM   #256
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That's very interesting. I didn't connect that they are discussing a concept that David Lynch uses in his own films. I figured Tammy was an idiot, and the seeds don't create literal tulpas, but just fake humans so the Lodge spirits can do what they want, as Bad Coop did.

But here, this is an explanation I really like that gives me pause about my own theory:
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/t..._reviewed.html

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:01 PM   #257
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already read that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soniclovenoize View Post
If Judy could just send whomever she wanted into this dimension, why didn't Sarah Palmer just collect pictures of her enemies and send them all into pocket dimensions? Why even bother with Laura Palmer?
This is an extremely relevant point but don't forget that Laura Palmer is also a creation of the "Lodge" or "Mother" or "Judy" or whatever you want to call it, as was "BOB".

Also Judy is a spirit who can only physically manifest in a host -> Sarah Palmer.

This is also good insight into why I don't think Judy created the alt timeline/reality. It was a trap from the Giant (for Judy), who knew that Cooper would try and follow Laura.

Also in regards as to why Judy did not just collect pictures of her enemies and send them into pocket dimensions...who is to say she didn't? The first thing that comes to mind is the log of the Log Lady.

I think the real question is to what length does the Mother/Judy rule Lodge activity? Everyone seems to hate her. I'm thinking that she is THE supreme negative force that dictates Black Lodge activity, to which even red room members are subject.

I'm just freestyling here...

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:05 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soniclovenoize View Post
That's very interesting. I didn't connect that they are discussing a concept that David Lynch uses in his own films. I figured Tammy was an idiot, and the seeds don't create literal tulpas, but just fake humans so the Lodge spirits can do what they want, as Bad Coop did.
You're the one that described it without using the actual word. Don't get mad or treat anyone like an idiot.

This is a nice show with nice fans.

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:07 PM   #259
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Its easier if you read the links you send and then use them in your argument instead of just throwing up signs as if its the end-all-be-all of explanations

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:08 PM   #260
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i'm playing on expert mode

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 09:37 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slunken View Post
This is an extremely relevant point but don't forget that Laura Palmer is also a creation of the "Lodge" or "Mother" or "Judy" or whatever you want to call it, as was "BOB".
Created as bait. To pull Cooper to fight BOB and Judy. Without putting a Laura Palmer into earth, there would have been no reason for Coop to go to Twin Peaks.

Quote:
Also Judy is a spirit who can only physically manifest in a host -> Sarah Palmer.
We don't know that.

Quote:
This is also good insight into why I don't think Judy created the alt timeline/reality. It was a trap from the Giant (for Judy), who knew that Cooper would try and follow Laura.
Why would The Giant trap Cooper? He's helping him. He's a "good guy"

Quote:
Also in regards as to why Judy did not just collect pictures of her enemies and send them into pocket dimensions...who is to say she didn't? The first thing that comes to mind is the log of the Log Lady.
Ah the "who says it didn't happen?" logic! Nice.

Quote:
I think the real question is to what length does the Mother/Judy rule Lodge activity? Everyone seems to hate her. I'm thinking that she is THE supreme negative force that dictates Black Lodge activity, to which even red room members are subject.

I'm just freestyling here...
That's interesting because my interpretation is that there's good Lodge spirits (The Giant/Fireman, Mike), bad Lodge spirits (BOB, Judy, the Woodsmen) and spirits that don't seem to have either allegiance, and are neutral (The Arm, The Chalfonts)

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 09:38 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slunken View Post
You're the one that described it without using the actual word. Don't get mad or treat anyone like an idiot.

This is a nice show with nice fans.
Wow calm down Albert.

 
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Old 09-06-2017, 10:16 PM   #263
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I didn't mean that the Giant would trap Cooper , but Mr C
Cooking and on phone. Can't squabble over semantics.

Fun TV show!

 
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:49 AM   #264
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I think my favorite part about the finale was the over-arching sense of darkness, and the feeling of dread in knowing that something was going to happen, but you weren't sure what.

I can't think of any sort of film or tv show in recent times that made my stomach hurt like that.

i've been ranting and raving and having fun speculating about every part of the show (in other rooms) but when the finale hit me i just wanted to be alone and sit with it.

it was such a personal gut punch, and i think it was successful in doing that to the audience.

 
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Old 09-07-2017, 11:17 AM   #265
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Yeah I agree it was great. I'm just so glad it sort of devolved into a typical Lynchain work, since I loved Mulholland Drive and Inland Empire. I would have been disappointed if it didn't have an ambiguous ending that welcomed all this debate.

 
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:39 PM   #266
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I didn't expect it to have a closed ending, but I was surprised at how much of a cliffhanger this ending turned out to be. I remember reading long ago that FWWM was originally planned as part 1 of a movie trilogy which would wrap up the Twin Peaks story, so I guess somewhere in my mind I had the preconception that this would "wrap up" the story

at least norma and ed are together

 
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Old 09-07-2017, 06:06 PM   #267
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Mark Frost liked a tweet a few days ago that said Ep 17 felt like the ending whereas 18 felt like the start of something new. The guy clearly wants to do more, and I hope Lynch feels the same.

I don't dislike the dream interpretation, but I look at it as being valid to the extent that Lynch and Frost are is the dreamers and TP is their dream.

The 'Judy dimension' in this sense is the real world, or at least the TP version of the real world - the actual owner of the Palmer house is the one who answered the door. But giving the Tremond/Chalfont names works as a hint something's still very, very off. I feel like Laura gets full recall and breaks through the 'illusion' when she hears Sarah's voice - the utter lack of the usual electricity SFX during the logo afterwards could indicate a lack of spirit presence.

It's great that it can be read in so many ways. Such carefully crafted ambiguity.

 
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Old 09-08-2017, 09:14 AM   #268
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Been thinking about it, and I had read some theories that might be interesting. Basically, 1-17 was all a dream, the dreamer was Richard and Episode 18 is the real life. Still stuck in his dream fabrication, Richard wanders through Odessa, and sees real-life connections to his dream (Judy's, Tremont, etc). And at the end it, sort of breaks down, the Lynchain version of "And it was all a dream... or was it??" But more intellectually that could also tie into what rbg was saying about Twin Peaks' underlying message that dreams are more than dreams, that they can be realities. So here Richard's dream about Twin Peaks started becoming reality, until the very end when we, the viewer, are unsure what's real or not...

But anyways, he goes into Carrie Paige's apartment and sees a white horse statue. Obviously this is the white horse of death we see all through the series. But there is something else in the background of her apartment: a chair with a waste basket and some rolls of paper towel. Does that image look familiar?


 
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Old 09-08-2017, 12:02 PM   #269
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i noticed that too. weird

 
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Old 09-08-2017, 12:06 PM   #270
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while a lot of his sets often look "normal" or ordinary, Lynch is obsessive and maticulous with every single tiny detail on set. He's been known to delay a shoot because a single chair that's barely visible in the backround of a shot is the wrong style (compared to what he envisioned for the scene).

 
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