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Old 03-20-2016, 07:57 PM   #331
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I don't believe in this whoever asks first should pay bullshit. You agree to hang out and buy food and beer, you can pay for it too. We're not a couple, just people hanging out.

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:01 PM   #332
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Why is everybody dwelling upon the financial aspects of social activity, anyway?

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:04 PM   #333
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Well we're just talking, hardly dwelling. What's up with you man? You seem irritable lately.

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:07 PM   #334
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Then again I don't have intimate relationships with anyone and I just recently learned that people feel things when talking to each other in everyday conversations.
this sentence reads wonderfully like the thought process of an android. what did you mean though?

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:09 PM   #335
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I feel anxiety and sometimes frustration. Is that what she means?

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:09 PM   #336
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I don't think anything is wrong with that. I even do so with my platonic friends. Last time I went it with my friend D, I believe he bought movie tickets, I bought the horribly overpriced snacks, and later we went to a fast casual restaurant where you order at the front and then they take your order to the table when it's ready, so we just ordered separately.

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:10 PM   #337
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We're not a couple, just people hanging out.
I would think that being a couple would move things more into the bill-splitting territory.

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Why is everybody dwelling upon the financial aspects of social activity, anyway?
Probably something to do with hegemonic late-capitalism commodifying every aspect of our lives, even the intimate ones.

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Old 03-20-2016, 08:11 PM   #338
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Well yeah but I'm talking about just getting to know each other dates.

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:11 PM   #339
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I think we had a big conversation about this just a few months ago.

My thoughts are that it is largely contextual. The only thing I have a problem with is the idea that the man "should" pay b/c "chivalry" or "being a gentleman" or something else sexist. Generally I agree that it would be best to split the cost of a date, especially a first date, in theory. In practice, because we live in a world shaped by these intense gender norms, it is not always super easy to do that. I figure the woman I am talking to is at least moderately a feminist because she works in environmental justice and went to a public liberal arts school, but even so it was just easier for me to buy the tickets than to tell her ok I bought mine you go here and purchase yours, or to set up an account with that thing that splits the cost or whatever. Also I did want to demonstrate I was investing to take her out as a token of my interest, not just fucking around cause I'm bored.

Also this opens up the opportunity for her to do something reciprocal, in this case probably buy dinner. I can't really explain why, but I feel it's more romantic to not worry about splitting the exact cost 50/50 but to both add something different to the experience. I know it doesn't really make sense and probably no one else thinks this way, but it feels more intimate I guess thinking that I took her to a show and she bought me dinner as opposed to we each bought a ticket and each paid for our dinner and just did those things together
i actually wholeheartedly agree with this.
i'm still learning the dubious art of dating but so far the bill is definitely a trick point. like, i definitely agree with everything everyone has said itt, but if you're going to frown upon paying for a couple of drinks you're likely to have a huge red light bulb light over your head that same moment. so i tend to just pick it up instead of giving it a moment to try and feel out if the girl is going to offer paying her share or not.

also, your post made me sort of realize i'm 32 and have been on my first 'proper' dates this week. gah.

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:14 PM   #340
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this sentence reads wonderfully like the thought process of an android. what did you mean though?
I dunno if we have a similar problem, but it's very hard for me to make eye contact with people during conversations and I usually look around the room when talking to them instead of looking at their face or body language for visual cues that could give me valuable information about their emotions. I think it leads to a lot of discomfort, misinterpretation, and ambiguity. I'm not good at reading people.

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:15 PM   #341
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this sentence reads wonderfully like the thought process of an android. what did you mean though?
Well, when I go to therapy sometimes, we talk about how I react when I first get into the office. Because I have a problem with eye contact and generally do very generic hello, and don't seem to have emotions towards our meeting. Even though I am very glad I am there, and feel as connected to her than I anyone else, more than anyone else even.

So we talked about it the other day, and I was like... "Do people really great each other and feel really great about it make eye contact and have warm interactions, isn't that exhausting to do all the time?" And she informed me that people who like each other generally do do these things when they meet and spend time together.

Also we were talking about similar things and I brought up (which was very hard) that I've been coming for 5 years and we've never actually touched in any way, you know like handshake or hug or anything. We talked about it a little. Upon reflection, I believe if I actually let her hold my hand or something I would just burst out in tears, like my intimacy is so fucking screwed up that I couldn't handle feeling the grief around how I never let anyone do things like that and actually feel that they care for me. Like I can actually imagine we might do this in therapy, as an exercise in trust (b/c I do trust her) and actually letting myself feel that this person actually cares about me and isn't going to fuck with me if I let my guard down. I'm not sure if this makes sense if you don't have attachment issues like I do.

TL;DR chronic PTSD fucks up your ability to feel intimacy. i had the child abuse plus intimate partner abuse so i think i have it pretty severely, especially for someone who actually does like most people

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:16 PM   #342
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Well we're just talking, hardly dwelling. What's up with you man? You seem irritable lately.
Hyperbole, dear Henry. Rest assured that I remain as always.

Instead, I might have said, "I prefer not to focus so much upon the financial ramifications of social interaction. It is easy to plan ahead in order that your outing is affordable and, beyond that, any question of who spends what is secondary to whether or not you have a mutually enjoyable time."

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:19 PM   #343
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here's the first link i found on avoidant fearful attachment. except i dont really let relationships get to the point where i find them close enough to then run away. usually.

http://jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriend...rful-avoidant/

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:21 PM   #344
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also, your post made me sort of realize i'm 32 and have been on my first 'proper' dates this week. gah.
I actually read something about this the other day that said formal dating is something generally reserved for those over 30

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:25 PM   #345
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Do you feel pressure to pay for her? I never do but you know, I don't have to worry about being chivalrous with girls.
I did feel a certain amount of pressure to adhere to the social norm, but I think it was more about wanting to show her immediately that I'm asking her on a serious date, not like let's hang out and maybe we can be friends or maybe we can make out depending on your mood. But also I felt like maybe I should pay because this is not a "cheap" date (not as cheap as grabbing lunch or coffee anyway). Maybe that is part of the showing her I am really interested thing.

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I don't believe in this "the man should pay" benevolent sexism bullshit, but I do think that whoever propositions the date should pay, assuming it's a first date or something like that. Otherwise, couples should split the bill, or sort of alternate between themselves or whatever.
The thing is that socially the man is expected to proposition the woman, so even though "whoever asks pays" works well in a theoretical sense, in practice it enforces the exact same standard.


with my last girlfriend I paid for almost everything because she was broke. with my ex from before that who I dated for a few years, we used to have humorous and overly dramatic "arguments" about who gets to pay for what and what is the best way to defy gender norms in this way. I really think it's mostly contextual, but in the interest of having some sort of principle: when two people go out and the cost of the outing has not been discussed, the expectation should be that the bill (or whatever) will be split I think. If I didn't pay for a woman and she had a problem with it, I most likely would not go out with her again. I'm a big believer that worldviews and philosophies don't have to mesh to make a good couple, but I see this as sexism and I'm not cool with that.

Last edited by redbreegull : 03-20-2016 at 08:31 PM.

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:27 PM   #346
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Well, when I go to therapy sometimes, we talk about how I react when I first get into the office. Because I have a problem with eye contact and generally do very generic hello, and don't seem to have emotions towards our meeting. Even though I am very glad I am there, and feel as connected to her than I anyone else, more than anyone else even.

So we talked about it the other day, and I was like... "Do people really great each other and feel really great about it make eye contact and have warm interactions, isn't that exhausting to do all the time?" And she informed me that people who like each other generally do do these things when they meet and spend time together.

Also we were talking about similar things and I brought up (which was very hard) that I've been coming for 5 years and we've never actually touched in any way, you know like handshake or hug or anything. We talked about it a little. Upon reflection, I believe if I actually let her hold my hand or something I would just burst out in tears, like my intimacy is so fucking screwed up that I couldn't handle feeling the grief around how I never let anyone do things like that and actually feel that they care for me. Like I can actually imagine we might do this in therapy, as an exercise in trust (b/c I do trust her) and actually letting myself feel that this person actually cares about me and isn't going to fuck with me if I let my guard down. I'm not sure if this makes sense if you don't have attachment issues like I do.

TL;DR chronic PTSD fucks up your ability to feel intimacy. i had the child abuse plus intimate partner abuse so i think i have it pretty severely, especially for someone who actually does like most people

i had a similar talk with my (awful) therapist back when i was still going.
i would find it very hard to start up once i got inside, especially without him asking me any questions. and i would always have trouble dealing with the end of the session. like, you kind of need to go full halt and just get up and walk outside. i would always knee-jerkingly say something redundant and superficial, like "have a nice day".
and i did kind of let my guard down, and that person did kind of fuck with me. i sort of wish i'd never gone.

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:35 PM   #347
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here's the first link i found on avoidant fearful attachment. except i dont really let relationships get to the point where i find them close enough to then run away. usually.

http://jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriend...rful-avoidant/
Oh god a lot of parts of that sound like me.

Some parts of your post sounded familiar, too, but significant parts were also different from my experience (for example, my weird social detachment probably isn't from serious trauma, but just social anxiety and fear of rejection in general).

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The thing is that socially the man is expected to proposition the woman, so even though "whoever asks pays" works well in a theoretical sense, in practice it enforces the exact same standard.
I guess that's true.

I think my entrenched interest in upholding the standard isn't the traditional "it's somehow emasculating for the dude not to pay and also it makes her owe him physical intimacy" bullshit, but rather my covert wish that one day I will be asked out by a beautiful woman who will then proceed to cover the bill. We can make this world a reality. For, uh, you know, equality and stuff...

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:37 PM   #348
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I dunno if we have a similar problem, but it's very hard for me to make eye contact with people during conversations and I usually look around the room when talking to them instead of looking at their face or body language for visual cues that could give me valuable information about their emotions. I think it leads to a lot of discomfort, misinterpretation, and ambiguity. I'm not good at reading people.
you only ever need to make eye contact for a few seconds at a time. it's normal to look away, turn your head, engage in physical animation while you speak. people will be equally put off by someone who won't break eye contact, if not more so

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:51 PM   #349
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i had a similar talk with my (awful) therapist back when i was still going.
i would find it very hard to start up once i got inside, especially without him asking me any questions. and i would always have trouble dealing with the end of the session. like, you kind of need to go full halt and just get up and walk outside. i would always knee-jerkingly say something redundant and superficial, like "have a nice day".
and i did kind of let my guard down, and that person did kind of fuck with me. i sort of wish i'd never gone.
I'm sorry to hear that you had a shitty experience.

I usually have no problem talking to her... we talk about lots of things; unfortunately my trauma and also years of isolation made it very hard to re-enter society, and some things are still hard. And then there is processing traumas and etc. My main problem is dissociation. We have discussions where she tries to make me commit to the idea that reality really exists. I rarely do so. I think I did once.

So it's not so much that we don't connect as therapist-client, but that we don't connect as human to human, you know what I mean? And I don't do that with anybody, but a good place to start is probably with her. I do trust her, at least explicitly I feel like I trust her.

 
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:53 PM   #350
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you only ever need to make eye contact for a few seconds at a time. it's normal to look away, turn your head, engage in physical animation while you speak. people will be equally put off by someone who won't break eye contact, if not more so
yes, but for me anyway, I can make eye contact but not really, look at the eyes but not in them, you know what I mean? and i get away with it but it really takes away the connection. in fact my empathy is super diminished because of this in addition to the lack of intimacy/connection with another person

 
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Old 03-21-2016, 12:14 AM   #351
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I think my entrenched interest in upholding the standard isn't the traditional "it's somehow emasculating for the dude not to pay and also it makes her owe him physical intimacy" bullshit, but rather my covert wish that one day I will be asked out by a beautiful woman who will then proceed to cover the bill. We can make this world a reality. For, uh, you know, equality and stuff...
yeah if a woman asked me out and insisted on paying I would probably be the most flattered I have ever been in my life

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yes, but for me anyway, I can make eye contact but not really, look at the eyes but not in them, you know what I mean? and i get away with it but it really takes away the connection. in fact my empathy is super diminished because of this in addition to the lack of intimacy/connection with another person
yeah I think I know what you mean.

it's way easier for me with the opposite sex. I feel significantly less comfortable with men in general. also strangely people who are farther from my own age (in either direction) are much easier for me to "get" in a social situation and understand the social cues and how to mimic their vernacular and behavior and such

 
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Old 03-21-2016, 12:33 AM   #352
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i had a similar talk with my (awful) therapist back when i was still going.
i would find it very hard to start up once i got inside, especially without him asking me any questions. and i would always have trouble dealing with the end of the session. like, you kind of need to go full halt and just get up and walk outside. i would always knee-jerkingly say something redundant and superficial, like "have a nice day".
and i did kind of let my guard down, and that person did kind of fuck with me. i sort of wish i'd never gone.
btw the whole getting up and leaving situation should be drawn out for a few minutes, not like "oh time's over, you're crying? well just shut it down til next time mmmkay?" that's really the therapist's job, to get you talking about meaningful things but also transitioning you back to normal before you leave, unless you have some other agreement. like working with trauma stuff, i set up my days to where i dont have anything i must go to after therapy. so if i'm a little farklempt still, that's ok

 
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Old 03-21-2016, 12:36 AM   #353
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yeah if a woman asked me out and insisted on paying I would probably be the most flattered I have ever been in my life



yeah I think I know what you mean.

it's way easier for me with the opposite sex. I feel significantly less comfortable with men in general. also strangely people who are farther from my own age (in either direction) are much easier for me to "get" in a social situation and understand the social cues and how to mimic their vernacular and behavior and such
I've always thought that I did this very well despite my issues but I'm starting to think I've been blind to the abnormality of my behavior. Like I think I deal with ppl OK generally, besides people pay much more attention to themselves than if another person is a little awkward or dissociated. But... I'm not really sure anymore. I do treat friends differently but my only close friend lives in massachusettes 3/4 of the year (and we only talk like 6x a year anyway, except on facebook a little). so maybe he's not what some people would consider close, but i think we consider each other close. he has some issues anyway himself, i think he's so smart that he actually has to try to dumb down to talk to people or he goes over everyone's heads. i mean he's generally smart but he knows a lot about history and religions and shit and will reference things and i have no idea what he's talking about.

he's been with me through some shit like when i had to deal with the FBI and when our friend died last year, we worked together at one point, etc.

I think I treat my doctors different in general, psych or otherwise. Connect to them more. I don't know.

 
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Old 03-21-2016, 04:24 AM   #354
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Well, when I go to therapy sometimes, we talk about how I react when I first get into the office. Because I have a problem with eye contact and generally do very generic hello, and don't seem to have emotions towards our meeting. Even though I am very glad I am there, and feel as connected to her than I anyone else, more than anyone else even.

So we talked about it the other day, and I was like... "Do people really great each other and feel really great about it make eye contact and have warm interactions, isn't that exhausting to do all the time?" And she informed me that people who like each other generally do do these things when they meet and spend time together.
Yeah, I kind of feel like greeting people is just a ritual. For a long time, I was too nervous to greet people when I came into work or something, and would just slip in and start working due to anxiety. But then I realized that this only makes me seem odd, which only increases my anxiety, so I forced myself to start greeting people, but it's just this very mechanical thing I do (same phrases, same inflections, etc). I still feel anxious when I do it, I just know that it's a lot better than being the "weird guy". I feel like I kind of just recite some script. I say the exact same thing every time. I've even started to notice that whenever I say, "how are you," I'm walking away before the person even has time to answer, because I'm not really listening to the person, I'm just going through my lines. When somebody responds with something other than the standard line, I kind of freeze because I don't have a canned response for it.

With most people, I find it's very hard to move past pretty standard, formal conversation. I even noticed that people seem to talk to me differently from how they talk to other people, probably because I'm so boring and colorless. Like, they'll just make really safe, pleasant small-talk with me and won't really say anything that reveals much personality, but then somebody else will enter the room and I'll see them light up and crack blue jokes and tease and rib each other, like normal people seem to do. I can't really make conversation naturally, I have to consciously tell myself things like "oh, I better ask for an update on that thing this person mentioned was going on in their life in order to display polite interest and get them talking about her-/himself," and then I won't even really be listening to what they say after I prompt them because my head is somewhere else.

I've also started to notice that, even during ostensibly cordial interactions with another person, I kind of feel this hostile tension beneath it all, like there's this subtext that I'm trying to shut them out or keep them at arm's length, can't really explain it. I dunno, probably just a defense thing to pre-empt rejection. Probably why I don't have close friends.

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Also we were talking about similar things and I brought up (which was very hard) that I've been coming for 5 years and we've never actually touched in any way, you know like handshake or hug or anything. We talked about it a little. Upon reflection, I believe if I actually let her hold my hand or something I would just burst out in tears, like my intimacy is so fucking screwed up that I couldn't handle feeling the grief around how I never let anyone do things like that and actually feel that they care for me. Like I can actually imagine we might do this in therapy, as an exercise in trust (b/c I do trust her) and actually letting myself feel that this person actually cares about me and isn't going to fuck with me if I let my guard down. I'm not sure if this makes sense if you don't have attachment issues like I do.

TL;DR chronic PTSD fucks up your ability to feel intimacy. i had the child abuse plus intimate partner abuse so i think i have it pretty severely, especially for someone who actually does like most people
I think I can kind of understand what you mean (though I don't experience it myself). Kind of like, people you had close relationships with before and who were in a position of trust traumatized you, so now it's hard to let anybody get that close again, or to think about all the sort of regular emotions you've denied yourself by not allowing yourself to be somewhat vulnerable to people (if I interpreted that correctly).

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yes, but for me anyway, I can make eye contact but not really, look at the eyes but not in them, you know what I mean? and i get away with it but it really takes away the connection. in fact my empathy is super diminished because of this in addition to the lack of intimacy/connection with another person
I can kind of relate to being able to fake social interactions without really being "there," which is a lot better than when social interactions just kind of immobilized me, though it probably doesn't get at the root problem. Still, I can live like this, I suppose.

As for empathy, in terms of concern for other people's emotions, I would say mine isn't diminished at all. In terms of being able to interpret them, I suck at that, I think.

 
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:45 AM   #355
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I think I'm able to cognitively empathize well, but actually feeling solidarity is hard for me. As for the intimacy stuff, yes you interpreted correctly. I don't all at do it consciously but I've adopted a lifestyle where those sorts of relationships just don't happen. And it's easy to forget that I'm missing out a lot on life but not having emotional connections with people.

As for moving past formal conversation... I actually do that most of the time. I have a total mask of - maybe not intimacy, but interest in others. I mean, I AM interested in them, but the way I go about it is sort of a projection of how I would like to be perceived (which I think works well). I don't think if you asked my coworkers for example, if I'm quiet or weird or unfriendly they'd say yes. I appear to be pretty normal, I think. But there's no feelings there, there's a facade of feelings plus a connection that is unable to develop into anything deep. And I think that's normal as far as the connection part (the feeling thing is not normal), but it shouldn't be that way with everyone. There should be a small amount of people I am more intimate and have a deep connection with, and I don't have anyone. Because I don't even pursue it. But I do want it.

 
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Old 03-21-2016, 06:47 PM   #356
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Only been to one concert alone. I admittedly felt a little weird about being in such a huge crowd without anyone to talk to between bands, but that's just me.
That's when it's bar time! and when it's bar time theres always fun and shenanigans taking place

 
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Old 03-21-2016, 09:48 PM   #357
teh b0lly!!1
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so the sex happened last night and i'm absolutely dying inside. i don't know why.
i'm so tired everything always having to be so difficult and overwhelming and barely coherent even to myself. honestly so tired.

 
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Old 03-21-2016, 09:58 PM   #358
reprise85
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what do you mean everything always having to be so difficult?

 
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:31 PM   #359
teh b0lly!!1
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that i can never just enjoy anything at all without being absolutely consumed by crippling anxieties of endless kinds, both during and afterward, and how always falling back to black holes of profound existentialist depression is just inevitable. i'm just so tired from it, from everything having to be a mental struggle

 
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:35 PM   #360
toase
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I know that
alcohol usually helps, but I don't recommend that

 
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