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Old 10-12-2018, 02:39 AM   #91
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I guess when you continue to put out new work, there is always the risk that people will realise your earlier success was actually a fluke.

He should have stopped at MCIS and gone down in a blaze of glory
SP's odds would have been better if Billy stopped talking in public after MCIS. They even discussed this in the Joe Rogan interview, how Billy talking influences perception of his music. Same music, no commentary from Billy about anything, they'd be R&R HoF material right now.

The sad thing is I don't think that Billy lacks a filter which all those R&R HoF inductees possess, I think Billy is genuinely a deep thinker, and the only reason those other rock and roll stars (or what have you) didn't stick their own feet in their mouths was because they barely had/have a controversial thought worth sharing to begin with. If you got most of them on Joe Rogan's podcast, they'd be like Jimmy Chamberlain, just surface depth optimism. They'll put any blame to be had on themselves. They'll have nothing but the kindest things to say about their contemporaries.

Daryl Hall or sort of similar to Billy Corgan in this respect, he "goes there" in interviews, to the point where it might have been better for his career (in it's current state) had he not done the interview at all. If you listen to the Daryl Hall on Howard Stern interview, it's very Billyesque.

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Old 10-12-2018, 05:55 AM   #92
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Consider Pearl Jam, who did their R&RHoF worthy work between '91 and '94, but probably due to Eddie Vedder's sheer charisma, they remain popular in perpetuity. Billy Corgan has the exact opposite problem. He has an anti-charisma that drives any good will he generates into a ditch instantly. You have Eddie Vedder and Billy Corgan, both from Chicago, Eddie Vedder is considered a favorite son while Billy Corgan is a black sheep. The R&RHoF was tripping all over themselves to get Pearl Jam in there, but SP probably never even makes the long list, let alone a shortlist.

Another revealing thing about the R&RHoF, when they inducted Pearl Jam, they excluded the drummer who was with the band for their three peak sales albums, but included the drummer who was with them for their more recent, worst selling albums. It could be speculated that Eddie Vedder called the shots and decided whether the new drummer or the old drummer got in, but that would mean the subject of history was permitted to rewrite their own history, which is fucked up and it damages the integrity of the award, for anyone who cares about integrity, which obviously isn't many people, sadly. The moral of the story is that even though they claim it's about what a band represented ~25 years ago, it's really about what that band represents now.
Here is a conspiracy theory:

What if Billy made it known to the R&R committee that he would not accept the award with D’arcy as the bassist and the committee only would recognize them with her?

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:34 AM   #93
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This is now officially a Bon Jovi thread



Richie Sambora was kinda hot, back in the day
BON JON BOVI!!!!!!!!

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:32 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks View Post
Consider Pearl Jam, who did their R&RHoF worthy work between '91 and '94, but probably due to Eddie Vedder's sheer charisma, they remain popular in perpetuity. Billy Corgan has the exact opposite problem. He has an anti-charisma that drives any good will he generates into a ditch instantly. You have Eddie Vedder and Billy Corgan, both from Chicago, Eddie Vedder is considered a favorite son while Billy Corgan is a black sheep. The R&RHoF was tripping all over themselves to get Pearl Jam in there, but SP probably never even makes the long list, let alone a shortlist.

Another revealing thing about the R&RHoF, when they inducted Pearl Jam, they excluded the drummer who was with the band for their three peak sales albums, but included the drummer who was with them for their more recent, worst selling albums. It could be speculated that Eddie Vedder called the shots and decided whether the new drummer or the old drummer got in, but that would mean the subject of history was permitted to rewrite their own history, which is fucked up and it damages the integrity of the award, for anyone who cares about integrity, which obviously isn't many people, sadly. The moral of the story is that even though they claim it's about what a band represented ~25 years ago, it's really about what that band represents now.
Fantastic takes. Pearl Jam was a lot more famous in their heyday than SP ever was though. Pearl Jam was a literal cultural phenomenon whereas SP was sort of a second-tier alternative band... That changed briefly after MCIS, but they fizzled out pretty quickly after.

A lot of Pearl Jams lack of fame was also self-inflicted. Their reluctance to make music videos during an era when they were a necessity definitely hurt their growth... Impressively VS was still a HUGE hit anyways. Of course their taking on of Ticketmaster hurt momentum too.

But yeah, Pearl Jam carried themselves with an integrity that Corgan didn't. They kept the core of the lineup in tact too which goes along way with staying in the fans good graces... The alienation of Dave from the HOF was definitely puzzling. I think you're right, I always assumed that was Eddie pulling the strings there... That does sorta hurt the integrity of the whole endeavor, but when you're as iconic as Vedder is, you get to call a lot of the shots.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:36 PM   #95
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and SP made much more exciting music and I think it's totally related to Corgan being a wacko, the whole thing is just ironic because dude wants it
Ehh... That's debatable... Every release from Adore to Monuments weren't exactly anything to write home about.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:41 PM   #96
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MonumentsRocks;4470859]SP's odds would have been better if Billy stopped talking in public after MCIS. They even discussed this in the Joe Rogan interview, how Billy talking influences perception of his music. Same music, no commentary from Billy about anything, they'd be R&R HoF material right now..
I doubt it. Adore and Machina weren't very good albums. I know they've grown as cult classics around the community, but really, they're spotty albums at best.

It really comes down to whether Gish/S.D./MCIS is a strong enough run to be inducted. I think eventually it will be. It just won't be for another 10 years from now.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:43 PM   #97
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Ehh... That's debatable... Every release from Adore to Monuments weren't exactly anything to write home about.
I would literally listen to TBK 9 times before I'd make it through a whole Pearl Jam album holy zzzzzzzzzzzzz

how about some classic rock with goat vocals

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:45 PM   #98
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I doubt it. Adore and Machina weren't very good albums. I know they've grown as cult classics around the community, but really, they're spotty albums at best.

It really comes down to whether Gish/S.D./MCIS is a strong enough run to be inducted. I think eventually it will be. It just won't be for another 10 years from now.
Adore rules

there's a very good album between Machina 1 + 2 but that's been discussed 2 million times over

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:49 PM   #99
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I would literally listen to TBK 9 times before I'd make it through a whole Pearl Jam album holy zzzzzzzzzzzzz

how about some classic rock with goat vocals
I was just rocking my Vs C.D. a few days ago for the first time in forever and I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it. It's a fantastic album.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:52 PM   #100
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Adore rules

there's a very good album between Machina 1 + 2 but that's been discussed 2 million times over
Adore is my least favorite album from the original run. I like a few songs from the Machinas and there's a bunch that are alright, but for the most part, the magic just isn't there anymore.

The Everlasting Gaze, Let Me Give The World To You, Wound and Dross are all great songs... White Spyder, Saturnine, Crying Tree of Mercury are pretty good.. The rest is all very "meh"

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:54 PM   #101
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A lot of it sounds the same on Machina too... That's sorta the weird thing about it... Very bland for the most part. Almost like they were trying to go a Goo-Goo Dolls route and turning their backs on the grunge elements.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:54 PM   #102
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I just relistened to Roxy’s Avalon album ugh so good

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:03 PM   #103
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Adore is my least favorite album from the original run
because you have buttrock tastes

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:04 PM   #104
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stop talking about the pumpkins let’s discuss Roxy and all make sure they get into the HoF

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:04 PM   #105
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I’ll start. Eno/Roxy glam era vs Roxy pop era

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:04 PM   #106
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I like Brian Eno a lot but don't really care about Roxy Music

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:12 PM   #107
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I like Brian Eno a lot but don't really care about Roxy Music
as I would expect from you

go listen to “in every dream home a heartache”

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:15 PM   #108
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Someone recently described Ferry's aesthetic as "pretending to be a guy from the 50s who was from the future". A lot of the songs made more sense after that.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:35 PM   #109
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Someone recently described Ferry's aesthetic as "pretending to be a guy from the 50s who was from the future". A lot of the songs made more sense after that.
That’s a very apt description

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:50 PM   #110
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ever gotten high and listened to music for airports?
fuuuuck

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:53 PM   #111
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ever gotten high and listened to music for airports?
fuuuuck
that's actually the only thing I remember from junior year of college

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:42 PM   #112
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Avalon alone should get Roxy Music in. They set a tone that had a lot of imitators in the 80s. I also love the first album. Eno - Midas touch, enough said. Taking Tiger Mountain is an overlooked masterpiece.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:46 PM   #113
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as I would expect from you
I like a lot of proto-punk though

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:09 PM   #114
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I like a lot of proto-punk though
Roxy really only has “one” pronto-punk tune, and same with Eno. They’re worth a check out if you haven’t dug into them

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:10 PM   #115
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Avalon alone should get Roxy Music in. They set a tone that had a lot of imitators in the 80s. I also love the first album. Eno - Midas touch, enough said. Taking Tiger Mountain is an overlooked masterpiece.
Taking Tiger Mountain is indeed unbelievable.

Am really high now and listening to Green World tho

ahhh

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:28 PM   #116
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psninsp

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:34 PM   #117
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I doubt it. Adore and Machina weren't very good albums. I know they've grown as cult classics around the community, but really, they're spotty albums at best.

It really comes down to whether Gish/S.D./MCIS is a strong enough run to be inducted. I think eventually it will be. It just won't be for another 10 years from now.
There's no objective basis to say that Machina and Adore weren't good albums; there's not really an objective basis to say any album is good or bad. At worst an album can be so derivative, and remind you so much of other albums that you say, good or bad, it's too close to what you've heard before, so it's lacking in creativity, it's a waste of your time, and it didn't advance the art. I think both Adore and Machina have very unique sounds to them. I think even Zeitgeist and Oceania are unique, if for no other reason than Billy Corgan's distinctive snarl... although if some want to criticize MtaE for sounding a little too commercial oriented, I'd accept that. Billy probably chose Tommy Lee in hopes of giving the tracks a more commercial, arena rock type of sound.

When talking about strong albums, record sales are the only objective measure, and Pearl Jam's Ten did outsell SD and MCIS, 10 mm to 4 mm, but I have a feeling if I looked at the sales of some of the other inductees, I certain they sold significantly less albums. Some of those inductees are only in there because prevailing opinion is that they're musical geniuses, and I think there is a strong argument to be made for Billy Corgan's musical genius, but again, because he goes on radio shows and says "I think I'm a genius" it probably repulses people, and they don't want to reward his outward ego with their awards. I guess the whole idea of an award to is shower praise upon gifted people who might not toot their horns much otherwise.

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Old 10-12-2018, 10:46 PM   #118
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record sales tell you... how much a record sold

that's it

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:50 PM   #119
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There's no objective basis to say that Machina and Adore weren't good albums; there's not really an objective basis to say any album is good or bad. At worst an album can be so derivative, and remind you so much of other albums that you say, good or bad, it's too close to what you've heard before, so it's lacking in creativity, it's a waste of your time, and it didn't advance the art. I think both Adore and Machina have very unique sounds to them. I think even Zeitgeist and Oceania are unique, if for no other reason than Billy Corgan's distinctive snarl... although if some want to criticize MtaE for sounding a little too commercial oriented, I'd accept that. Billy probably chose Tommy Lee in hopes of giving the tracks a more commercial, arena rock type of sound.

When talking about strong albums, record sales are the only objective measure, and Pearl Jam's Ten did outsell SD and MCIS, 10 mm to 4 mm, but I have a feeling if I looked at the sales of some of the other inductees, I certain they sold significantly less albums. Some of those inductees are only in there because prevailing opinion is that they're musical geniuses, and I think there is a strong argument to be made for Billy Corgan's musical genius, but again, because he goes on radio shows and says "I think I'm a genius" it probably repulses people, and they don't want to reward his outward ego with their awards. I guess the whole idea of an award to is shower praise upon gifted people who might not toot their horns much otherwise.
Look man, I'm a fan of Billy Corgan and I like plenty of songs of his that are completely overlooked by most fans, but you're completely overrating his prowess. "Corgan's musical genius"... Come on...Sure, he's been a great songwriter at times in his career, but let's be rational and sensible.

Adore and Machina were average albums. Doesn't mean that there isn't some great songs on each release, but as albums they're nothing to write home about.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:53 PM   #120
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Like "Crestfallen" is seen as a fan-favorite across the community, but really, it's not very well written



Sounds rather bloated, really.

And then there's tracks like this that sound dated as fuck


 
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