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Old 05-30-2020, 03:45 PM   #91
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I agree with you and with everything he says in that video, other than that America is fucking decaying, man. It has always had this rot at its core. From Jefferson thru Thoreau and DuBois and King and West the American project and promise is just picking at it and picking at it. We'll always be picking at it and we have to keep picking at it. The protestors are picking at it right now. But I think over the course of our history--and we are all enslaved by our history--we've removed a lot of that rot. We are not decaying--if anything we are slowly healing. I think this distinction is very important because it entails the future we imagine and build together. and again, the left wins when it runs on optimism and hope and loses when it runs on negative critical messages, and i want the left to win.

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 04:08 PM   #92
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bored now. where's the covid-20 thread

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 05:40 PM   #93
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According to economists, a society is "decayed" after eight straight quarters of decay.

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 05:50 PM   #94
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Did they change their minds since this morning?

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 07:14 PM   #95
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So America's peak was five years ago and that is widely enough agreed upon that a claim that America is in decay is obviously correct and it's disingenuous to look at larger timeframes? I really do not understand what is happening itt.
It's admirable that you want to defend a personal acquaintance and prevent anybody from thinking he's what fuzzyroes would look like if he'd stuck it out with that high school diploma, but we both know that ovary's argument is essentially that everything averages out to be about as good as it gets in the United States when taking slavery or the civil war into consideration and that the election of Donald Trump plus the genuine chance he's winning again in no way indicate any sort of decline within the nation. The fact that your government failed so miserably to protect its citizens and placed partisan politics so far ahead of all other considerations that 100,000 people died is being brushed over as if that was just as likely to occur at any other point in modern history as if America looking like a fucking clownshoe on the world stage just sort of happens from time to time while blatantly guilty presidents are acquitted in corrupt impeachment trials and global health initiatives are defunded during the most relevant possible crises.

If you're on board with the above, how are we meant to have a conversation when one of us is either too far gone for it or just being intellectually dishonest because friendship?

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:19 PM   #96
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It's admirable that you want to defend a personal acquaintance and prevent anybody from thinking he's what fuzzyroes would look like if he'd stuck it out with that high school diploma, but we both know that ovary's argument is essentially that everything averages out to be about as good as it gets in the United States when taking slavery or the civil war into consideration and that the election of Donald Trump plus the genuine chance he's winning again in no way indicate any sort of decline within the nation. The fact that your government failed so miserably to protect its citizens and placed partisan politics so far ahead of all other considerations that 100,000 people died is being brushed over as if that was just as likely to occur at any other point in modern history as if America looking like a fucking clownshoe on the world stage just sort of happens from time to time while blatantly guilty presidents are acquitted in corrupt impeachment trials and global health initiatives are defunded during the most relevant possible crises.

If you're on board with the above, how are we meant to have a conversation when one of us is either too far gone for it or just being intellectually dishonest because friendship?
I dont really think you know what ovary is saying. You’re usually a stickler for accurate rhetoric and not tolerant of that which uses emotional manipulation and hyperbole, so I’m not sure where you are coming from in this case.

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:24 PM   #97
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It's admirable that you want to defend a personal acquaintance and prevent anybody from thinking he's what fuzzyroes would look like if he'd stuck it out with that high school diploma, but we both know that ovary's argument is essentially that everything averages out to be about as good as it gets in the United States when taking slavery or the civil war into consideration and that the election of Donald Trump plus the genuine chance he's winning again in no way indicate any sort of decline within the nation. The fact that your government failed so miserably to protect its citizens and placed partisan politics so far ahead of all other considerations that 100,000 people died is being brushed over as if that was just as likely to occur at any other point in modern history as if America looking like a fucking clownshoe on the world stage just sort of happens from time to time while blatantly guilty presidents are acquitted in corrupt impeachment trials and global health initiatives are defunded during the most relevant possible crises.

If you're on board with the above, how are we meant to have a conversation when one of us is either too far gone for it or just being intellectually dishonest because friendship?

And if you think Trump is the reason minorities in the US are being killed disproportionately because of coronavirus, I doubt
You have a grasp on how racist this country is

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:12 PM   #98
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I view Trump and his winning of a democratic election in the United States of America as a glaring symptom of social decline and that also covers my view on how you guys have dealt with the pandemic.

While I couldn't claim to know ovary's exact thoughts, both of you have yet to convincingly demonstrate how his argument differs from those portrayals I've made of it despite ongoing efforts to wring some sense from the idea that we cannot accurately refer to America as experiencing any amount of the decay or decline that'd permit the use of those words.

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:15 PM   #99
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I view Trump and his winning of a democratic election in the United States of America as a glaring symptom of social decline and that also covers my view on how you guys have dealt with the pandemic.

While I couldn't claim to know ovary's exact thoughts, both of you have yet to convincingly demonstrate how his argument differs from those portrayals I've made of it despite ongoing efforts to wring some sense from the idea that we cannot accurately refer to America as experiencing any amount of the decay or decline that'd permit the use of those words.
you've decided his argument meant a certain thing which he doesn't, so I'm not sure there is much I can do to convince you.

Trump is a symptom of shit that has been going on in this country for hundreds of years. It's not a decline, it's a reversion to the mean. Part of what ovary is saying, and what I am saying, is the fact that things have been especially good for an especially large number of people in the US in the last 60-80 years is the exception, not the rule. Your interpretation is that we must mean nothing better can be hoped for, but literally no one said that at all.

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:18 PM   #100
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this is literally the stupidest fucking argument. we don't disagree at all, this is a fight over term definitions

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:25 PM   #101
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It's less of a stupid argument than several you had with others. The difference is that others didn't involve your friend 28if.
And even if it were simply a discussion of a word (which isn't the only disagreement I see), how is that stupid suddenly?

If anybody here would use the word racism or gender with their own private definition, you'd be first in line to debate it.

Now it's simply decay.

And it's cool for you that you know what 28if means, but we can only read what he actually writes. And seeing lines like the US is still better than the majority of other countries, in a week where it has the worst riots in 50 years, and in a year where it somehow does worse in preventing people from dying in a pandemic than the majority of other countries, would get you into combat mode had anyone other than your friend written it.

So instead of trying to shut a conversation down because for once it doesn't involve someone you dislike, you could be honest enough to allow it to play out.

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Old 05-30-2020, 10:49 PM   #102
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If anybody here would use the word racism or gender with their own private definition, you'd be first in line to debate it.
so the accepted definition of societal decay is a downturn within the last five years? ovary is employing a personal definition which is at odds with what is generally accepted?

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Old 05-30-2020, 10:54 PM   #103
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this is literally the stupidest fucking argument. we don't disagree at all, this is a fight over term definitions
Honestly, my feeling is that you and I are closer to agreement on the relevant matters than either of us are with ovary.

In any case, the way I've characterized his argument was intended to demonstrate to him how his stated views look to this observer. My interactions with him began as questioning and I have pushed him to clarify further at every step. So far, the best either of you have done is to hypothetically calculate a sort of average state of America that includes the time before electricity and then tell me that things have actually improved from there. If things have been "especially good for an especially large number of people in the US in the last 60-80 years" and they're not going to be that good going forward, the inherent reversion to this mean you're on about actually represents a decline in itself. I could rest my case on that point alone, though I imagine you'd then refer to cycles and completely ignore the influence China will exert upon that over the next several decades.

If Trump is the kind of thing that's been happening all along, why have you in particular always seemed so emphatically disturbed by his election?

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:06 PM   #104
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Honestly, my feeling is that you and I are closer to agreement on the relevant matters than either of us are with ovary.

In any case, the way I've characterized his argument was intended to demonstrate to him how his stated views look to this observer. My interactions with him began as questioning and I have pushed him to clarify further at every step. So far, the best either of you have done is to hypothetically calculate a sort of average state of America that includes the time before electricity and then tell me that things have actually improved from there. If things have been "especially good for an especially large number of people in the US in the last 60-80 years" and they're not going to be that good going forward, the inherent reversion to this mean you're on about actually represents a decline in itself. I could rest my case on that point alone, though I imagine you'd then refer to cycles and completely ignore the influence China will exert upon that over the next several decades.

If Trump is the kind of thing that's been happening all along, why have you in particular always seemed so emphatically disturbed by his election?
Trump is the embodiment of a movement I didn't understand was so powerful until his election. But when he was elected, I had to do a lot of soul searching and thinking on how such a thing was possible. And of course, the making has been there for decades. Trump is just the step where they don't have to pretend to be not racist anymore. But once again, I am appalled at Trump and I believe Ovary is as well. I don't think America is absolutely IN A DECLINE or NOT IN A DECLINE, but I do think this is an argument over terms and not content. I see the Trump Administration as a decay relative to Obama, but when Obama was pres leftists were talking about how he was the decay of society as well. So it's kind of an exhausting pattern to listen to, and yes, it does seem like a rhetorically questionable argument that America is a "decayed society" in comparison to 4 years ago, especially when most of the racist structures, in fact the vast vast majority of racist structures which make minority people more exposed to violence, disease, and poverty have not only been there since before Donald Trump, but have been there since before 1776.

It's possible I understand Ovary's point to be basically aligned with ours because I know him personally, and he spends all his time writing critical analysis. I don't see it as an attack on progressivism or anti-racism that he would pick apart the rhetoric used by an influential thinker and activist. I see it as the same thing you are taught to do every day when you are getting a literature phd

a dissection of someone's words is not necessarily an attack. I get the attitude that it's not appropriate to do that to someone's point when you are in front of an audience that you are trying to convince to come to your side, but literally everyone here agrees on 95% of this already. We literally drove all the republicans off the board because we didn't want to tolerate them. no one here is going to lose out on cornell west's point because one dude pointed out that a word he used was questionable

rhetoric is about your audience as much as it is about everything else, and I find myself often wondering about this when people on the left argue. it just seems commonly enough that the rhetorical attitude of people on the left is to talk as if defending one's thesis to a theoretical panel of justice or something, abstracting their words from who is actually listening/reading

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Old 05-30-2020, 11:13 PM   #105
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Everybody what are your top five societal decays throughout history? No mere declines please, just full-on decays.

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:18 PM   #106
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Everybody what are your top five societal decays throughout history? No mere declines please, just full-on decays.
so we're talking periods of downturn in a 5 year window?

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:20 PM   #107
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In a way I am almost flattered that non-Americans have this idea that America was once, at its core, better than it is now

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:25 PM   #108
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Are we talking about, like, every single metric a country could be judged on? Like, economic equality, social justice, human development, global economic/military hegemony, obesity rates, literacy rates, technological innovation, infant mortality, carbon emissions per capita, and size of its largest pyramid?

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:27 PM   #109
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let's define the peak of American society by every factor on the list

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:27 PM   #110
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cross-sectioned by race and income

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:30 PM   #111
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economic equality peaked in 1967 when minimum wage, per buying power, was highest. mark it down. we're decaying like an isotope

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:30 PM   #112
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Well, then the peak was whenever they built this Bass Pro Shop.


 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:32 PM   #113
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You don't think that a step that means people don't need to pretend they're not racist anymore in a world leading nation in 2016 is suggestive of any sort of decay/decline/etc.? Honestly, it just seems like you completely agree with me but absolutely must do the backflips necessary to remain loyal.

The argument clearly does involve defining terms, but it's not going very well. For example, I'm not sure how you've gotten this idea that anybody thinks "societal decay" specifically refers to a downturn within the last five years. Really, I think it's more the case that people are saying it doesn't refer to falling below an average calculated on the basis of things from 1800 to 2020. Try all you like to redirect the conversation to West's article and limit our discussion to its use within that context, but ovary's absolute first response to my questioning opened with references to the narrative of the political left and you can't just worm away from that when it suits you.

At the end of the day, this exchange began with ovary questioning the use of terminology. It doesn't look like we're going to be adopting his position on that one point and the abject lack of a persuasive argument for doing so is rather surprising when given how much time he apparently spends on critical analysis.

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:38 PM   #114
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You don't think that a step that means people don't need to pretend they're not racist anymore in a world leading nation in 2016 is suggestive of any sort of decay/decline/etc.? Honestly, it just seems like you completely agree with me but absolutely must do the backflips necessary to remain loyal.

The argument clearly does involve defining terms, but it's not going very well. For example, I'm not sure how you've gotten this idea that anybody thinks "societal decay" specifically refers to a downturn within the last five years. Really, I think it's more the case that people are saying it doesn't refer to falling below an average calculated on the basis of things from 1800 to 2020. Try all you like to redirect the conversation to West's article and limit our discussion to its use within that context, but ovary's absolute first response to my questioning opened with references to the narrative of the political left and you can't just worm away from that when it suits you.

At the end of the day, this exchange began with ovary questioning the use of terminology. It doesn't look like we're going to be adopting his position on that one point and the abject lack of a persuasive argument for doing so is rather surprising when given how much time he apparently spends on critical analysis.
his definition of decay is a lot more compelling than netphoria's, which seems to be "anything going wrong that went right yesterday." I brought up the 4 year thing because when he said 4 years is a very short historical window to say a society is decayed, you were like, "noooooo there is no window for decay and you're disingenuous for trying to define one, it just IS"

I think the fact that the racists have taken off their masks is a symptom of decay for sure, at least the way you are thinking about it. But I have to ask then, is history a cycle of decay and restoration? Cause decay implies death. But 50 years ago we had race riots and assassinations, a war that killed 70k Americans and millions of civilians in Asia over ideology, less education, less healthcare, lower quality of life for everyone (whites and nonwhites), lower lifespan.... so was that decay and then we got better and we're in a new state of decay?

 
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:55 PM   #115
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You still haven't acknowledged that the beginning of a decline would immediately follow a peak. It doesn't require that the downturn first extend for some minimum period of time before we may refer to it or say it exists, though it will be harder to demonstrate and lead to conversations like this.

It's good to know that downturns only occur in cycles and I don't know why I hadn't noticed that the British Empire still controls the world.

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:01 AM   #116
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The analytical dream team of redbreegull and ovary have me convinced.

A decline isn't a decline until more than four years have passed. Although the decline is a decline during the fifth year of downward movement, that fifth year is to be considered the first year of decline. That being said, decline following those initial four years of decline are not required to extend by an additional four years in duration before such time as they may be referred to as a decline. Only the first four years do not exist (but do).

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:02 AM   #117
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You still haven't acknowledged that the beginning of a decline would immediately follow a peak. It doesn't require that the downturn first extend for some minimum period of time before we may refer to it or say it exists, though it will be harder to demonstrate and lead to conversations like this.

It's good to know that downturns only occur in cycles and I don't know why I hadn't noticed that the British Empire still controls the world.
I have no idea tbh I'm kind of looking for a better definition of decay. To me, saying a society is "decayed" does not imply things were great 4 years ago but have gotten worse. It sounds like dead, rotted out, over, done. Which I assumed was West's rhetorical point in using "decayed" whether he meant it literally in a historical perspective or not. But maybe I'm wrong to associate the word decay so strongly with a final end?

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:03 AM   #118
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The analytical dream team of redbreegull and ovary have me convinced.

A decline isn't a decline until more than four years have passed. Although the decline is a decline during the fifth year of downward movement, that fifth year is to be considered the first year of decline. That being said, decline following those initial four years of decline are not required to extend by an additional four years in duration before such time as they may be referred to as a decline. Only the first four years do not exist (but do).
I mean, you are outright changing the word in question, which is "decayed."

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:12 AM   #119
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My first post on this subject effectively equated the words and acting in good faith would require that you accept my obvious meaning.

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:20 AM   #120
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ok so decayed=decline. got it. can we get a definition now?

 
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