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Old 12-09-2015, 12:11 PM   #121
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Except Zeitgeist-Oceania are no better?

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 12:17 PM   #122
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It's better than the vast majority of crap being spewed by bands currently.
Listen to more bands.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 02:39 PM   #123
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Lyrics are just as important to me as music or melody when it comes to songs and that's been one of my problems with Billy in recent years...
If it makes you feel any better, I can't think of any Smashing Pumpkins album reviews I've read where Billy's lyrics were praised, dating back to SP1.

I think most music critics have always snubbed his lyrics as being too "high school diary"/"teen poetry".

Having discovered the pumpkins when I was in high school, it never really bothered me. But yeah, on MTAE, the lyrics seemed to have devolved even further.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 03:02 PM   #124
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Adore

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 03:14 PM   #125
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I think one of the reasons for MTAE's market failure was the cover art...all the other SP albums at least said 'smashing pumpkins' on them and looked somewhat inviting. MTAE just looks like a brick wall with black smoke

When I'm exploring new music and trying to get into a band I never really listen to albums with weird abstract cover art

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:40 PM   #126
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Adore
Quote:
I can't go on, digging roses from you grave
To linger on, beyond the beyond
Where the willows weep
And whirlpools sleep, you'll find me
The coarse tide reflects sky
indeed

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 05:13 PM   #127
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I think one of the reasons for MTAE's market failure was the cover art...all the other SP albums at least said 'smashing pumpkins' on them and looked somewhat inviting. MTAE just looks like a brick wall with black smoke

When I'm exploring new music and trying to get into a band I never really listen to albums with weird abstract cover art
distribution and publicity was shit too. last month i went to one of only two large CD stores remaining, and it wasn't there to be seen.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 05:15 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by DemonUnicorns View Post
indeed


because you are
because you are
because you are
because you are
because you are
because you are

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Originally Posted by myosis View Post
distribution and publicity was shit too. last month i went to one of only two large CD stores remaining, and it wasn't there to be seen.
My local record store had it and Look to the Sky available (this was in August). I bought look to the sky. Went back last week, MTAE was still there

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 05:17 PM   #129
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distribution and publicity was shit too. last month i went to one of only two large CD stores remaining, and it wasn't there to be seen.
maybe i would have bought it, who knows

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 05:35 PM   #130
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apparently Billy is in Nashville at the moment, that's where Howard's studio is based...

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 05:51 PM   #131
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If it makes you feel any better, I can't think of any Smashing Pumpkins album reviews I've read where Billy's lyrics were praised, dating back to SP1.

I think most music critics have always snubbed his lyrics as being too "high school diary"/"teen poetry".

Having discovered the pumpkins when I was in high school, it never really bothered me. But yeah, on MTAE, the lyrics seemed to have devolved even further.
That's actually my point here. Corgan's lyrics were "high school diary"/"teen poetry" 20+ years ago and they're still "high school diary"/"teen poetry" today. Why haven't his lyrics gotten better? Why hasn't he grown or improved at his craft? Why is he so content with releasing subpar lyrics with his music?

To hear him say in interviews that he feels his songs are so strong, and to also hear him vocalize his displeasure that no artists cover/have hits with his material cuz he feels that others would have hits with his songs really bothers me cuz the guy does have talent and can write a good lyric but doesn't have to ability to self-edit himself, and it seems that when he does write a good lyric that it's almost by accident unfortunately cuz it happens so rarely.

The only real songwriting 'technique' I've ever heard him talk about is locking himself in a room to vomit up lyrics. And as expected most of those vomited up lyrics are nonsensical and teen poetry-esque with very little substance or meaning to them. It'd be awesome to see him grow as an artist and to start utilizing songwriting tools such as using metaphors, word association and prosody into his music, but I'm a realist and know that if he hasn't done it by now, at almost 50, then it's not gonna happen.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 05:57 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ram27 View Post
because you are
because you are
because you are
because you are
because you are
because you are
Are you actually making the argument that Billy's lyrical writing wasn't excellent during the Adore era?


Perhaps there is a reason Because You Are didn't make it on to the album...

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 06:30 PM   #133
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seriously I don't know what planet some of you are from. his lyricism is one of the most praised elements of the original band. and jelly blossom claiming his lyrics haven't changed but have always been as bad as they are now? wtf?

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 06:46 PM   #134
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his lyricism is one of the most praised elements of the original band.
Please kindly provide published examples of claimed lyrical praise.

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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
and jelly blossom claiming his lyrics haven't changed but have always been as bad as they are now? wtf?
My claim is that Billy hasn't grown as a songwriter or lyricist. He was giving his songs random titles and writing nonsensical lyrics on Gish as much as he did on MTAE.

Can you tell me the lyrical meaning behind either "Rhinoceros" or "Tiberius"? Can you tell me why either song was given its respective title and how each title actually fits in with each song? Please kindly elaborate as to what exactly a 'mustard lie' is and how a given listener is supposed to relate with that.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 07:47 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by DemonUnicorns View Post
Are you actually making the argument that Billy's lyrical writing wasn't excellent during the Adore era?


Perhaps there is a reason Because You Are didn't make it on to the album...
I mean, the cracks are starting to show. The fact that he wrote that at all is kind of bothersome

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 07:50 PM   #136
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Can you tell me the lyrical meaning behind either "Rhinoceros" or "Tiberius"? Can you tell me why either song was given its respective title and how each title actually fits in with each song?
Well, it's art. Each person can derive their own meaning. And titles don't always have to spell out what the song is about.

If he wanted everyone to know exactly what he meant by his lyrics, he might as well just write a book instead.

Because I don't consider myself a knowledgable critic of the written word (books, music, poetry), I've personally never had an issue with the content of BC's lyrics... until Zeitgeist forward.

From that point, something about the lyrics just feels... uninspired maybe? ...less rich/coded with imagery like you would find on Siamese Dream or MCIS... maybe even lazy.

Last edited by jparker800 : 12-09-2015 at 08:18 PM.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 07:56 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom View Post
Please kindly provide published examples of claimed lyrical praise.



My claim is that Billy hasn't grown as a songwriter or lyricist. He was giving his songs random titles and writing nonsensical lyrics on Gish as much as he did on MTAE.

Can you tell me the lyrical meaning behind either "Rhinoceros" or "Tiberius"? Can you tell me why either song was given its respective title and how each title actually fits in with each song? Please kindly elaborate as to what exactly a 'mustard lie' is and how a given listener is supposed to relate with that.
I think the band and music as a whole was better in the old days so we're more accepting/forgiving of bad lyrics, or willing to give them more of a chance

That being said

Quote:
Sprinkle all my kisses on your head
Stars full of wishes fill our beds
She said, "I'm dead"
Quote:
Fool enough to almost be it
Cool enough to not quite see it
Doomed
Pick your pockets full of sorrow
And run away with me tomorrow
June
Quote:
Time is never time at all
You can never ever leave
Without leaving a piece of youth
And our lives are forever changed
We will never be the same
The more you change the less you feel
Quote:
Cupid hath pulled back his sweetheart's bow
To cast divine arrows into her soul
To grab her attention swift and quick
Or morrow the marrow of her bones be thick
With turpentine kisses and mistaken blows

See the devil may do as the devil may care
He loves none sweeter as sweeter the dare
Her mouth the mischief he doth seek
Her heart the captive of which he speaks
So note all ye lovers in love with the sound
Your world be shattered with nary a note
Of one cupids arrow under your coat

And in the land of star crossed lovers
And barren hearted wanderers
Forever lost in forsaken missives and satan's pull
We seek the unseekable and we speak the unspeakable
Our hopes dead gathering dust to dust
In faith, in compassion, and in love
Quote:
Twilight fades through blistered Avalon
The sky's cruel torch on aching Autobahn
Into the uncertain divine
We scream into the last divine
______________________

Quote:
On the day that you were born
They built an empire off a scream
I can't explain
Endlessly they'll set you free
Give you reason to believe
This empty place
I may seem unafraid
And I may seem unashamed
But I will be special k
Quote:
Silent fog
Let's pass and wither
From the cold that swas me flat
My love is winter
My love is lost

There is love enough for the both of us
There is more than prayers made to be with you
My love is lost

My love is winter
My love is lost
My love is winter
Quote:
La-la-la-la-la...
A pluck on spider strings
Gutter from the stars
Children from the stars
Children cry out proud
As embers blast my heart
Broken where I'd stop
Quote:
Hush my love, don't bite
Never leave here this night
Words break, don't faint
What is love if love obeys
Let flee doves in flight
Make me stray from my light
Never leave here softly
Quote:
Lover let me please
Fall on down your knees
Lover let me please, be the one
Know the prayers to make
Flowers made to fade
And when this world to wait
It’ll wait for us
Quote:
Where you're from spoils the lean
Run2me, run2me
As the desert rose, desert dreams
Run to me, my tempered sage, run to me
The early stuff just feels cooler. And they had a cool guitarist and drummer in the band. There was more mystique to it.

Plus I've listened to the early stuff more, so I've thought more about the lyrics and had more time to feel ways about them. Honestly, I can't even sing the last few examples in my head or anything because I just can't get into the song as a whole enough to give a fuck

Also his new singing style is grating to listen to. Especially when mixed so loud.

The song titles and some lyrical elements have a wider range of quality to them now. Shit like Baby Let's Rock! or I will be special K wouldn't happen in the 90s.

Last edited by Ram27 : 12-09-2015 at 08:02 PM.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 08:17 PM   #138
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I will be special K
oh jeez... I never realized that's what he said, and never bothered looking it up

I always thought he was saying "special cake" haha

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 08:26 PM   #139
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What doesn't kill you only makes your book longer.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 08:35 PM   #140
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Oh my god, open your eyes to these mustard lies!

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:14 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom View Post
My claim is that Billy hasn't grown as a songwriter or lyricist. He was giving his songs random titles and writing nonsensical lyrics on Gish as much as he did on MTAE.

Can you tell me the lyrical meaning behind either "Rhinoceros" or "Tiberius"? Can you tell me why either song was given its respective title and how each title actually fits in with each song? Please kindly elaborate as to what exactly a 'mustard lie' is and how a given listener is supposed to relate with that.
Gish --> Adore = pretty self-evident lyrical growth. Everything after that has obviously been a 10 mile trip backwards, his lyrics now are worse than the pre-Gish material.

I do not get your breakdown of what makes a "good lyric" at all. Concrete narratives with no nuance or enigma are what makes good lyrics? I mean have you ever read any poetry? Something being abstract does not mean it doesn't have meaning. Corgan's ability in the old days to conjure emotional reaction from abstract imagery and word association is fucking amazing. The guy was a master. You sound like someone looking at a Picasso and complaining that the people aren't painted anatomically correctly.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:16 PM   #142
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I mean please, give me some examples of who you consider a meaningful lyricist because you seem to be saying good lyrics should be straight prose.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:28 PM   #143
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Well, it's art. Each person can derive their own meaning. And titles don't always have to spell out what the song is about.
To simply state that it's art is a super weak argument. Why even listen to an 'artist' if he can't convey a complete thought? Art is about articulation of a thought, a mood and idea. Billy fails as a songwriter when he uses the idea that it's up to the listener to decide.

If as a listener If I have to go to great efforts to make interpretations of his song titles and lyrics then why even listen to him? (That's a rhetorical question)

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Originally Posted by jparker800 View Post
If he wanted everyone to know exactly what he meant by his lyrics, he might as well just write a book instead.
There are plenty of excellent lyricists who convey and articulate their thoughts in lyrics without writing books. Morrissey is typically hailed as a great lyricist by many. I personally like Brett Anderson from Suede, Martin Gore from Depeche Mode and even Courtney Love from Hole.

All of which (and countless others) have written great lyrics that have conveyed ideas/thoughts/emotions without having to do so by writing a book.

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Originally Posted by jparker800 View Post
Because I don't consider myself a knowledgable critic of the written word (books, music, poetry), I've personally never had an issue with the content of BC's lyrics... until Zeitgeist forward.
Why the exception? Why does the earlier stuff get a pass from you and not Zeitgeist forward?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker800 View Post
From that point, something about the lyrics just feels... uninspired maybe? ...less rich/coded with imagery like you would find on Siamese Dream or MCIS... maybe even lazy.
Billy's lyrics have never been inspired, by his own admittance. His lyrics have always been vomited out and he admits that he doesn't know what his songs mean or he's outright dismissive over the lyric(s) to a given song. He states this in interviews all the time when asked about the meaning of a given song or songs from a given period/album. That tells me that he puts no effort into his lyrics which makes sense when you sit down to read them.

Most of his lyrics mean nothing. A lot are travelogues that give random pictures of places yet don't actually fit together to tell a cohesive story or a complete thought.

Last edited by Jelly Blossom : 12-09-2015 at 09:34 PM.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:37 PM   #144
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I mean please, give me some examples of who you consider a meaningful lyricist because you seem to be saying good lyrics should be straight prose.
That's exactly not what I've said. I've mentioned lyrical techniques such as using metaphors, word association and prosody.

Perhaps you don't know what any of those lyrical techniques or tools are?

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:38 PM   #145
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Billy's lyrics have never been inspired, by his own admittance. His lyrics have always been vomited out and he admits that he doesn't know what his songs mean or he's outright dismissive over the lyric(s) to a given song. He states this in interviews all the time when asked about the meaning of a given song or songs from a given period/album. That tells me that he puts no effort into his lyrics which makes sense when you sit down to read them.

Most of his lyrics mean nothing. A lot are travelogues that give random pictures of places yet don't actually fit together to tell a cohesive story or a complete thought.
He only says that because he doesn't like explaining song meanings since he did with Spaceboy and people twisted his words. It's pretty clear that most of his lyrics has a meaning, they are not random stuff put together.

I remember a interview - Adore era - where he was "asked" about his mother's death and how Adore was about it and he strongly denied it.... just because he didn't want to talk about it.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:38 PM   #146
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His lyrics have always been pretty hit and miss, but it's never really mattered to me cause the sound and delivery was cool.

But it's kind of got to a point recently where the lyrics are so lazy and slapped together that it sometimes detracts from the songs (GOD, RIGHT ON!), which have actually been on a quality upswing since the Teargarden debacle.

For what it's worth I actually like a bunch of Monuments and the lyrics don't bug me too much, but obviously the songs would be a lot better with a little more lyrical meat on the bones.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:42 PM   #147
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Gish --> Adore = pretty self-evident lyrical growth. Everything after that has obviously been a 10 mile trip backwards, his lyrics now are worse than the pre-Gish material.

I do not get your breakdown of what makes a "good lyric" at all. Concrete narratives with no nuance or enigma are what makes good lyrics? I mean have you ever read any poetry? Something being abstract does not mean it doesn't have meaning. Corgan's ability in the old days to conjure emotional reaction from abstract imagery and word association is fucking amazing. The guy was a master. You sound like someone looking at a Picasso and complaining that the people aren't painted anatomically correctly.
You're confusing abstract with nonsensical.

Deep layered meanings are usually done by using metaphors and similes, not by connecting random thoughts in a travelogue sense where you're in the Appellation mountains in one line then swimming in the Hawaiian beaches the next line. That's how Billy writes his lyrics much of the time.

Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions from time to time. I've personally stated that "Drum + Fife" is the only redeeming lyric on MTAE, and I've always liked "Stand Inside Your Love". But much of the rest of his lyrics are for the most part just gibberish.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:45 PM   #148
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He only says that because he doesn't like explaining song meanings since he did with Spaceboy and people twisted his words. It's pretty clear that most of his lyrics has a meaning, they are not random stuff put together.
Then please kindly explain, in detail and line by line, the lyrical meaning of songs such as "Rhinoceros", "Untitled", "Hummer", "Tiberius" and "Doomsday Clock".

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:48 PM   #149
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His lyrics have always been pretty hit and miss, but it's never really mattered to me cause the sound and delivery was cool.
So based on this statement, you'd be perfectly fine if songs featured scat vocals in place of lyrics.

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Originally Posted by fuzzyroes View Post
But it's kind of got to a point recently where the lyrics are so lazy and slapped together that it sometimes detracts from the songs (GOD, RIGHT ON!), which have actually been on a quality upswing since the Teargarden debacle.

For what it's worth I actually like a bunch of Monuments and the lyrics don't bug me too much, but obviously the songs would be a lot better with a little more lyrical meat on the bones.
That's my point here, only replace "a little more lyrical meat" with "a lot more lyrical meat".

And for the record, I don't think Billy has the talent to write quality lyrics. A good line or verse here or there, maybe even enough to scrap together a good lyric for a full song occasionally but definitely not for a full album.

 
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Old 12-09-2015, 10:00 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom View Post
To simply state that it's art is a super weak argument. Why even listen to an 'artist' if he can't convey a complete thought? Art is about articulation of a thought, a mood and idea. Billy fails as a songwriter when he uses the idea that it's up to the listener to decide.

If as a listener If I have to go to great efforts to make interpretations of his song titles and lyrics then why even listen to him? (That's a rhetorical question)

There are plenty of excellent lyricists who convey and articulate their thoughts in lyrics without writing books. Morrissey is typically hailed as a great lyricist by many. I personally like Brett Anderson from Suede, Martin Gore from Depeche Mode and even Courtney Love from Hole.

All of which (and countless others) have written great lyrics that have conveyed ideas/thoughts/emotions without having to do so by writing a book.
Well, I disagree. I think art can simply convey a sense or an impression and be successful.

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Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom View Post
Why the exception? Why does the earlier stuff get a pass from you and not Zeitgeist forward?
I should probably revise my comment. There are lots of great lyrics found in various songs from Zeitgeist forward. But it seems to me that from Zeitgeist forward, there started to crop up head-scratchingly bad lyrical decisions. "Come On, Let's Go." "Starz" "For God and Country" "The Celestials" "My Love is Winter" "Run2Me" just to name a few

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom View Post
Billy's lyrics have never been inspired, by his own admittance. His lyrics have always been vomited out and he admits that he doesn't know what his songs mean or he's outright dismissive over the lyric(s) to a given song. He states this in interviews all the time when asked about the meaning of a given song or songs from a given period/album. That tells me that he puts no effort into his lyrics which makes sense when you sit down to read them.

Most of his lyrics mean nothing. A lot are travelogues that give random pictures of places yet don't actually fit together to tell a cohesive story or a complete thought.
I suppose I have an easier time accepting a larger variety of methods artists use to express a thought. I will often latch onto several phrases within a song and construct my own meaning to that song rather than judge the song by the entirety of it's intended meaning. Let's say your premise that BC doesn't tell a cohesive story or provide a complete thought is true, that's fine with me because the sketches are enough for me to work with or appreciate. If it leaves me with an impression or a feeling, then it's successful for me.

As I said, I'm not qualified to judge art critically, just personally. You sound like you have a much keener sense of good lyrical form or word usage.

 
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