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Old 08-17-2020, 12:21 PM   #91
redbreegull
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Im making fun of you, not Sanders. Sanders knows there is no comparison between Biden and Trump and is vocally supporting Biden.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 12:21 PM   #92
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Im a fucking socialist, dude.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 01:09 PM   #93
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also, as squish squash already knows, a lot of people on this board including myself voted for Sanders both times in the primaries. but you know, the world is largely black and white so lesser evilism is wrong and we should smash the system etc etc

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 01:09 PM   #94
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to hell with reducing suffering and utilitarianism, give me what I want or fuck you

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 01:13 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly View Post
Trump is wreaking havoc all over the world. He hasn't pulled the US out of the "wars" he said he would end (Afganistan, Iraq, etc. the US military is still there). He's pushing the US more and more toward war with Iran. He has isolated the US from our closest allies. He has created a cold war with China that could easily escalate into military conflict. He has called for expanding Guantanamo. He is praising and coddling the worst dictators in the world. He's colluding with Putin to aid the destruction of our electoral system. He's operating hundreds of concentration camps. Etc etc etc

The idea that he is somehow less bad at colonialism or war or murder or death than Obama is ridiculous. The reality is that this guy is a monster who is conducting genocide and ethnic cleansing on a massive scale.
Trump has also brought us toe to toe with the real prospect of war with two of our adversaries which could both be described as rogue states. and of course he's torn up a large number of obama's international accomplishments, both environmental and security related. he's torn up non proliferation agreements with the Russians, the Iran nuclear deal, the Paris accord etc.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 01:15 PM   #96
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drilling in the arctic coming soon

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 01:59 PM   #97
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to hell with reducing suffering and utilitarianism, give me what I want or fuck you
Who cares if Biden and Kamala are both warmongering neoliberals who are obsessed with feeding the American prison industrial complex? You must stop Trump. Maybe we can have real change in 2024.

Yeah, right. My goal is to get a progressive in 2024. Youd rather suffer 8 years of Harris (Biden wont last long) than 4 more years of Trump even if those 4 years led to 8 years of AOC. Look at the big picture and stop continuing a broken system. You do realize wed have got a progressive this time if everyone who supported Bernie voted green in 2016? You guys are telling the Democratic establishment you are happy taking their shit sandwich, and they see no reason to start putting up any candidate who will bring about real change. If Biden wins, the establishment will be even more convinced they dont need to do anything to earn votes.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:01 PM   #98
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the idea that letting trump get re-elected will result in a progressive revolution is straight up 100% magical thinking.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:01 PM   #99
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like, truly an idea with absolutely no evidence whatsoever

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:03 PM   #100
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I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you need to get off the internet and go study public policy or something

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:14 PM   #101
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"keep [...] in president" is another weird English (American?) language thing

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:15 PM   #102
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he is a president, not in president

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:15 PM   #103
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or are you, foolofatook?

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:24 PM   #104
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:25 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
the idea that letting trump get re-elected will result in a progressive revolution is straight up 100% magical thinking.
The idea that electing Joe Biden will get anything progressive accomplished is straight up 100% magical thinking. Turn off MSNBC

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:36 PM   #106
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Why do we always make the mistake of placing the debate at the point set by users that clearly don't read our posts or engage in good faith?

This is currently looking more or less identical to discussions had with fuzzy over Trump vs. Hillary in 2016. Some of those references to the unproven, future tense warmongering of the Democrat candidate are virtually direct quotes.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:37 PM   #107
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Are your own views best expressed upon a backdrop of broken record statements issued by a person that, however old they may be in reality, read like a teenager feeling super enlightened by their first two weeks at college?

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:40 PM   #108
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:51 PM   #109
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"I personally draw a distinction between endorsement, endorsing a candidate, and voting for them. I have not yet endorsed Vice President Biden, but I will be voting for him in November."
- Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Do we be as active as we can in electing Joe Biden and doing everything we can to move Joe and his campaign in a more progressive direction? Or do we choose to sit it out and allow the most dangerous president in modern American history to get reelected? I believe that its irresponsible for anybody to say, Well, I disagree with Joe Biden -- I disagree with Joe Biden! -- and therefore Im not going to be involved.
- Bernie Sanders

Go convince your own heroes that they're wrong, Squish Squash. Fly directly in the face of the advice of your ideal presidents.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 03:30 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Squish Squash View Post
Who cares if Biden and Kamala are both warmongering neoliberals who are obsessed with feeding the American prison industrial complex? You must stop Trump. Maybe we can have real change in 2024.

Yeah, right. My goal is to get a progressive in 2024. Youd rather suffer 8 years of Harris (Biden wont last long) than 4 more years of Trump even if those 4 years led to 8 years of AOC. Look at the big picture and stop continuing a broken system. You do realize wed have got a progressive this time if everyone who supported Bernie voted green in 2016? You guys are telling the Democratic establishment you are happy taking their shit sandwich, and they see no reason to start putting up any candidate who will bring about real change. If Biden wins, the establishment will be even more convinced they dont need to do anything to earn votes.
USA could be gone before 2024 if we re-elect, seriously it could be

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 03:31 PM   #111
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“Who cares if Biden and Kamala are both warmongering neoliberals who are obsessed with feeding the American prison industrial complex? You must stop Trump. Maybe we can have real change in 2024”.
Trump literally canceled the plan to get rid of private prisons. Did you miss that?

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 03:32 PM   #112
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USA could be gone before 2024 if we re-elect, seriously it could be
well then fucking re-elect, I say!

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 03:36 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Squish Squash View Post
Who cares if Biden and Kamala are both warmongering neoliberals who are obsessed with feeding the American prison industrial complex? You must stop Trump. Maybe we can have real change in 2024.

Yeah, right. My goal is to get a progressive in 2024. Youd rather suffer 8 years of Harris (Biden wont last long) than 4 more years of Trump even if those 4 years led to 8 years of AOC. Look at the big picture and stop continuing a broken system. You do realize wed have got a progressive this time if everyone who supported Bernie voted green in 2016? You guys are telling the Democratic establishment you are happy taking their shit sandwich, and they see no reason to start putting up any candidate who will bring about real change. If Biden wins, the establishment will be even more convinced they dont need to do anything to earn votes.
Biden has had to pay lip service to progressives to keep their support. Remains to be seen if he will actually be more progressive than he has been in the past.

Trump winning puts the USA's existence into limbo, he's doing so many things to fuck up the election that it will be meaningless in the future because no one will have any confidence it matters, and it probably won't.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 03:38 PM   #114
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well then fucking re-elect, I say!
I'm not against this in principle but I'd like to avoid extreme unrest and paratrooper violence in cities, you know, cause I'm a punk ass bitch

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:44 PM   #115
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"keep [...] in president" is another weird English (American?) language thing
no it's some meme thing but i don't remember the original thing

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:44 PM   #116
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Rather than advocate for a parliamentary system in the United States, I was more curious to hear whether and why people support a presidential one. References to the alternative with which I am most familiar were only in response to the line I had quoted, where the drawbacks suggested did not appear to apply. I would never push for the compulsory preferential voting system of Australia and see it as producing America-esque outcomes, but any discussion of parliamentary systems would still need to consider that as well as MMP as options.
Ah, gotcha.

Well, proponents of presidential systems say that it's an advantage that voters vote for the head of government directly instead of the parliament electing them, because it adds more legitimacy. The fact that there is less party discipline often allows congresspeople to be more critical of their own party and a president from their party, allowing them to represent their district interests instead of the party's, whereas in a parliamentary system, backbenchers face harsh consequences for not toeing the party line.

The separation of powers is also intended to allow the executive and legislative branches to act as checks on each other, whereas they are combined in the parliamentary system, with the prime minister and their cabinet being legislators in the house and deciding much of policy. In a presidential system, the president can sponsor policy and decide how to execute law, but even laws the president endorses and sponsors will have to pass through the legislature independently, with not much the president can do to influence it.

Those are the common reasons proponents of presidential systems give for preferring them over a parliamentary system. I personally think either can work or become broken.

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I'd be curious to hear more about how a Canadian prime minister has more power than an American president, though. How do executive orders factor into that or how (i.e. via what mechanism) might a Canadian prime minister go about achieving an objective in the case that it lacks the requisite support?
Hmm. How executive orders factor into my comparison is a good question. I'm not an expert on the American Constitution (or any constitution, really), but my understanding is that executive orders are still limited in how exactly they can translate to law. The executive branch can't truly make new laws, but it can decide how to execute existing laws. The executive branch and its agencies often decide upon regulations that dictate how exactly it will go about its mandate by tweaking details that legislators don't have the time or exertise to explicate in their laws (such as the exact thresholds of pesticides produce may not exceed as a requirement for being labelled "organic," I would think), and the president, being the head of the executive branch, can give the rest of the executive branch orders on exactly how to do their jobs or carry out their duties within a certain scope. Whether the president in within or transgressing his bounds with a given order is a constitutional issue that can be taken to the courts and legal experts may debate on. Courts may strike it down, and Congress may pass a law neutralizing it. I don't know enough about the history of executive orders to know the general amount of power that American presidents have typically exercised with them. All I know is that some orders are highly controversial and looked at as an overtepping of power by detractors, while others are virtually toothless because the only effect they really end up having is expressing the president's preferences on something (Obama's order on closing Guantanamo, Trump's order signalling his wish to repeal the Affordable Care Act).

Though executive orders do not exist in Canada, Canadian prime ministers may issue "orders in council" which may allow them to enact legislation directly. This is very rare, however, and most orders in council are used just for political appointments and stuff like that.

However, seeing as the prime minister is the leader of their party in the house and a member of the executive cabinet, if a prime minister supports a certain policy, he or she will face little resistance passing it through the House of Commons in the case of a majority government, as party discipline virtually guarantees that every member of the party will vote in favour of it. I suppose in the case of a minority government, the prime minister could face opposition from opposition parties, and if the vote on the bill is also a vote of confidence, the government will topple if the majority of legislators vote against the bill, and a new election will have to be called.

So, I guess comparing the relative power of a president and a prime minister is actually somewhat more complex than I had initially suggested, without a clear answer as to which one has more than the other.

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:47 PM   #117
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no it's some meme thing but i don't remember the original thing
really?

I've read it so much now that I thought it was an actual thing

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:48 PM   #118
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Who cares if Biden and Kamala are both warmongering neoliberals who are obsessed with feeding the American prison industrial complex? You must stop Trump. Maybe we can have real change in 2024.

Yeah, right. My goal is to get a progressive in 2024. Youd rather suffer 8 years of Harris (Biden wont last long) than 4 more years of Trump even if those 4 years led to 8 years of AOC. Look at the big picture and stop continuing a broken system.
Is there any good evidence to believe that four more years of Trump will necessarily result in a pendulum swing to progressivism after his second term, and is it any more than a guess that this is much more likely than four more years of Trump simply further entrenching and perpetuating the far-right in American politics?

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:55 PM   #119
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really?

I've read it so much now that I thought it was an actual thing
yeah definitely, i'm trying to find it

 
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:57 PM   #120
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph.../#51100f68ff9c

well now i'm never using it again

 
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