Billy's Singing, Change in Singing effected Post-Adore work?/Production Rant - Page 2

ilikeplanets · 10-11-2016, 07:53 AM

They turned his mic all the way down, it seems like. Every producer, every James song.

VoxUpDoc · 10-11-2016, 08:28 AM

His live vocals around Zeitgeist were amazing. So much more powerful and old-school than on record. His recording voice has just gotten worse, it's a stylistic choice rather than necessity.

BurtSampson · 10-11-2016, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woody

His live vocals around Zeitgeist were amazing. So much more powerful and old-school than on record. His recording voice has just gotten worse, it's a stylistic choice rather than necessity.

I think you're forgetting how he dropped the first consonants of most words on that tour.

Ooday is the rrreatest day I've ever known

teh b0lly!!1 · 10:16 AM

i mean all it takes is comparing the documentaries.

look at the adore documentary. billy is in a big recording room, singing into some expensive condenser mic, going line by line and carefully tailors his singing into a take.

and then in the zeitgeist documentary, iirc, you see him yelling into a 57 in the control room, almost as an afterthought. that's really what makes the whole difference.

ilikeplanets · 10-11-2016, 10:50 AM

Also no more D'Arcy for quality control. She'd never let the album go out with Billy sounding like a sheep.

Jelly Blossom · 10-11-2016, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbreegull

in terms of literally hitting the notes correctly he's a totally adequate singer and has improved a lot since the early days

Yep. Those engineers have helped Billy a lot.

Jelly Blossom · 10-11-2016, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1

james iha also enjoyed the services of those same producers.
why does he still sound like shit?

Iha produced his own shit.

redbreegull · 10-11-2016, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom

Yep. Those engineers have helped Billy a lot.

Have you ever heard Billy Corgan sing live? He can actually do it now. If anything, his voice was fucked with a lot more in the early days to try and get it to sound good on recording. I would not say he is a good singer and I agree with everything that has been said about the pleasantness of his voice degrading over time. But in terms of his sheer ability to sing correctly from a technical point of view, he's much better now than in the old days. When he plays live, engineers aren't lurking behind the stage frantically autotuning and processing his voice

run2pee · 10-11-2016, 11:35 AM

Bills voice was astonishingly good at the plainsong I saw

None of the boots I've heard have done justice to how spine chillingly on point it felt in person

reprise85 · 10-11-2016, 12:25 PM

I agree, his voice was great on the last tour. Best I've seen of him, by far.

Mals Marola · 10-11-2016, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbreegull

Have you ever heard Billy Corgan sing live? He can actually do it now. If anything, his voice was fucked with a lot more in the early days to try and get it to sound good on recording. I would not say he is a good singer and I agree with everything that has been said about the pleasantness of his voice degrading over time. But in terms of his sheer ability to sing correctly from a technical point of view, he's much better now than in the old days. When he plays live, engineers aren't lurking behind the stage frantically autotuning and processing his voice

well, i think in the old days the disconnect between the live & studio stuff was more than just "studio trickery" or whatever

i mean yeah they sent him through the "pumpkinizer" or whatever they called that mysterious vocal effect Butch used with them, but Bill was also straight-up singing those songs differently in the studio, then pretty much belting out/screaming everything live until MCIS, when how he performed in the studio was pretty close to the shows

redbreegull · 10-11-2016, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mals Marola

well, i think in the old days the disconnect between the live & studio stuff was more than just "studio trickery" or whatever

i mean yeah they sent him through the "pumpkinizer" or whatever they called that mysterious vocal effect Butch used with them, but Bill was also straight-up singing those songs differently in the studio, then pretty much belting out/screaming everything live until MCIS, when how he performed in the studio was pretty close to the shows

that's true but I was responding specifically to jelly blossom implying he can't hit the literal notes anymore which is obviously false. Just from a technical POV, his voice is much better now than it has been in the past, and yes, he can hit the correct notes without anyone running his voice through anything.

redbreegull · 10-11-2016, 05:26 PM

also see pre-Gish live videos, he often sings in his deep dreamy breathy voice (which he later abandoned) and he's hitting all the notes for the most part. The screaming/high intensity singing was obviously a choice and not just the limitations of his vocal chords. he's always been able to sing decently enough

Slurpee · 10-11-2016, 06:34 PM

Oh good 28 years later and we're still arguing about whether Billy is a shit singer or not.

Disco King · 10-11-2016, 08:07 PM

WTF is this narrated by Andy from Pro Guitar Shop?

Jelly Blossom · 10-11-2016, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbreegull

that's true but I was responding specifically to jelly blossom implying he can't hit the literal notes anymore which is obviously false. Just from a technical POV, his voice is much better now than it has been in the past, and yes, he can hit the correct notes without anyone running his voice through anything.

As usual redbreegull is quick to make interpretations without understanding what was being said. Do us all a huge favor and post less and read more.

I did not imply that Billy "can't hit the literal notes anymore", I was pointing out that even with studio magic from some of the best engineers/producers in the music industry he still sounds like shit in the studio. Quite frankly he sounds even worse live, now especially. His singing with Iha on stage is unlistenable. The fact that this thread exists shows that I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Also I love how you say that he's a better singer now when you went on before, ad nauseum, at how all singers get worse as they age. You're a real piece of work my friend.

redbreegull · 10-11-2016, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom

As usual redbreegull is quick to make interpretations without understanding what was being said. Do us all a huge favor and post less and read more.

I did not imply that Billy "can't hit the literal notes anymore", I was pointing out that even with studio magic from some of the best engineers/producers in the music industry he still sounds like shit in the studio. Quite frankly he sounds even worse live, now especially. His singing with Iha on stage is unlistenable. The fact that this thread exists shows that I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Also I love how you say that he's a better singer now when you went on before, ad nauseum, at how all singers get worse as they age. You're a real piece of work my friend.

get a load of poots' little brother

Funbags · 10-11-2016, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mals Marola

i mean yeah they sent him through the "pumpkinizer" or whatever they called that mysterious vocal effect Butch used with them

IIRC it's a Eventide H3000 Harmonizer. There was an interview with someone (Butch maybe?) that mentioned that it's a detune preset on there.

run2pee · 10-11-2016, 08:56 PM

Remember when D'arcy drunk dialed that radio show to tell em how bill could sing in two tones at once like those mongolian throat singers

Ram27 · 10-11-2016, 10:01 PM

i thought all the sd vocals were run through a phaser

teh b0lly!!1 · 10-11-2016, 10:58 PM

they were actually run through jimmy's cock while he was passed out

Row · 10-12-2016, 02:25 AM

The phaser was the Mu-tron Bi-Phase. They might have ran Billy's voice through it to fatten up the sound.. I think it has some solid transformers in it but I don't know... but I don't think they were using it as an effect or anything?

I wasn't at the Plainsong shows but in the videos I watched he's still doing the nasally thing. Whoever used the Wah-Wah pedal metaphor is right on. It sounds like he's got a wah on and tilted down in the Nasally-Trebly position... It totally is an aesthetic thing and I do believe he chooses to sing like that. That's the part that hurts the most. Also, I do agree Billy is "hitting notes" MORE correctly and his pitch has certainly gotten better over time but Singing isn't just about "hitting the notes"... Its about timbre, style, delivery, the actual words your saying, FEELING... It's like saying if you play a crappy guitar through a crappy amp in a crappy sounding space and you're hitting all the correct notes it could still sound good. NOPE.

To me his voice from Machina onwards sounds the same. I don't understand any of this "in 2 Thousand-Whatever Year he was sounding great on Tour" stuff...

Ram27 · 10-12-2016, 09:46 AM

exactly. well, i'd say post-zwan onwards, but his voice has sounded like shit ever since. Even if I went and saw him live, I can't imagine having his voice blasted over the PA at me would make me like it more

the versions of mayonaise that are "on point" are ones from the 90s where i actually feel things hearing him sing it, even if technically they're bad

these ones make me cringe slightly

cork_soaker · 10-12-2016, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funbags

IIRC it's a Eventide H3000 Harmonizer. There was an interview with someone (Butch maybe?) that mentioned that it's a detune preset on there.

But not before I dubbed the vocal as presented 'uneventful'; or 'too dry' in studio parlance. Ambience added, I felt it worse. "How about 'The Pumpkinizer'?" I suggested; as so dubbed by Butch VIg circa 1990. An Eventide H3000 patch he'd amended you'd instantly recognize from GISH onward. And laughable I still have the setting saved!

"Let's try it," David said, and I'll be darned if it didn't work again for the 1000th time. "It just does that thing," Jeff said, and I didn't argue though I figured with all the new-fangled plug-ins out there the gimmick would no longer be needed.

Source

cork_soaker · 10-12-2016, 09:57 AM

The one efx we used a lot on Billy's voice was the Eventide harmonizer, to add a slight double effect. Usually 20 or 30 ms delay, with about a 10 cent pitch offset.

-butch vig from that gearsluts q&a

Ram27 · 10-12-2016, 10:08 AM

Never heard this about Disarm before

Quote:

The funny thing is, we origianlly wanted to make the strings sound like a quartet, so we should have only needed a couple takes. But after listening to them double the first part, we realized the song was going to sound much bigger and dynamic with a LOT of strings.
In hindsight, we probably could have got a 16 piece or 20 piece string section and done it live, but hey, what did we know...we were making it up on the fly!

Honestly I think the studio version would be amazing if it was just Billy + acoustic + violin. Kinda lofi live feel in contrast to the rest of the bombastic rock songs

run2pee · 10-12-2016, 10:46 AM

Everyone saying bill sounds like shit live rite now ... Did u actually go to a plainsong?? Or just checkin boots

Cuz just like guitar tone, a boot is not gonna b super accurate. I maintain that in Little Rock, I was absolutely stunned by bill's voice. It was truly powerful, he was belting it out at times like a bonafide pop star

Grox · 10-12-2016, 01:54 PM

yep, I saw them in April and Bill sounded great. Stumbleine in particularly was amazing, the way he belted the chorus.

Grox · 10-12-2016, 01:54 PM

and the solo mellotron version of Disarm performed on this tour was incredible, the first time i've ever been interested in that song

T&T · 10-12-2016, 02:36 PM

I just don't hear the new found 'power in his voice'

the weird consonants... weird man.
he doesn't hit every note. you've got to be tone deaf if you're thinking he does.
it's not as bad is some pre 95 live stuff... but there's a lot left to be desired.

10-11-2016, 10:05 AM	#34
teh b0lly!!1 Braindead Location: PROWLING THE BADLANDS Posts: 17,399	i mean all it takes is comparing the documentaries. look at the adore documentary. billy is in a big recording room, singing into some expensive condenser mic, going line by line and carefully tailors his singing into a take. and then in the zeitgeist documentary, iirc, you see him yelling into a 57 in the control room, almost as an afterthought. that's really what makes the whole difference. Last edited by teh b0lly!!1 : 10-11-2016 at 10:16 AM.

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10-11-2016, 07:53 AM	#31
ilikeplanets Braindead Location: Ignore List Posts: 17,229	They turned his mic all the way down, it seems like. Every producer, every James song.

10-11-2016, 08:28 AM	#32
VoxUpDoc Apocalyptic Poster Posts: 3,881	His live vocals around Zeitgeist were amazing. So much more powerful and old-school than on record. His recording voice has just gotten worse, it's a stylistic choice rather than necessity.

10-11-2016, 10:50 AM	#35
ilikeplanets Braindead Location: Ignore List Posts: 17,229	Also no more D'Arcy for quality control. She'd never let the album go out with Billy sounding like a sheep.

10-11-2016, 11:35 AM	#39
run2pee Minion of Satan Location: An oasis of horror in a desert of boredom Posts: 7,754	Bills voice was astonishingly good at the plainsong I saw None of the boots I've heard have done justice to how spine chillingly on point it felt in person

10-11-2016, 12:25 PM	#40
reprise85 BOTTLEG ILLEGAL Location: I'm faced with so many changes that I just might change my face Posts: 32,800	I agree, his voice was great on the last tour. Best I've seen of him, by far.

10-11-2016, 05:26 PM	#43
redbreegull Just Hook it to My Veins! Location: N3t4Euh Haus Posts: 32,753	also see pre-Gish live videos, he often sings in his deep dreamy breathy voice (which he later abandoned) and he's hitting all the notes for the most part. The screaming/high intensity singing was obviously a choice and not just the limitations of his vocal chords. he's always been able to sing decently enough

10-11-2016, 06:34 PM	#44
Slurpee Minion of Satan Location: breakfast Posts: 6,174	Oh good 28 years later and we're still arguing about whether Billy is a shit singer or not.

10-11-2016, 08:07 PM	#45
Disco King Minion of Satan Location: Banned Posts: 8,876	WTF is this narrated by Andy from Pro Guitar Shop?

10-11-2016, 08:56 PM	#49
run2pee Minion of Satan Location: An oasis of horror in a desert of boredom Posts: 7,754	Remember when D'arcy drunk dialed that radio show to tell em how bill could sing in two tones at once like those mongolian throat singers

10-11-2016, 10:01 PM	#50
Ram27 dumb Location: $8.6 million embezzled funds Posts: 11,368	i thought all the sd vocals were run through a phaser

10-11-2016, 10:58 PM	#51
teh b0lly!!1 Braindead Location: PROWLING THE BADLANDS Posts: 17,399	they were actually run through jimmy's cock while he was passed out

10-12-2016, 02:25 AM	#52
Row Amish Rake Fighter Location: California Posts: 23	The phaser was the Mu-tron Bi-Phase. They might have ran Billy's voice through it to fatten up the sound.. I think it has some solid transformers in it but I don't know... but I don't think they were using it as an effect or anything? I wasn't at the Plainsong shows but in the videos I watched he's still doing the nasally thing. Whoever used the Wah-Wah pedal metaphor is right on. It sounds like he's got a wah on and tilted down in the Nasally-Trebly position... It totally is an aesthetic thing and I do believe he chooses to sing like that. That's the part that hurts the most. Also, I do agree Billy is "hitting notes" MORE correctly and his pitch has certainly gotten better over time but Singing isn't just about "hitting the notes"... Its about timbre, style, delivery, the actual words your saying, FEELING... It's like saying if you play a crappy guitar through a crappy amp in a crappy sounding space and you're hitting all the correct notes it could still sound good. NOPE. To me his voice from Machina onwards sounds the same. I don't understand any of this "in 2 Thousand-Whatever Year he was sounding great on Tour" stuff...

10-12-2016, 09:46 AM	#53
Ram27 dumb Location: $8.6 million embezzled funds Posts: 11,368	exactly. well, i'd say post-zwan onwards, but his voice has sounded like shit ever since. Even if I went and saw him live, I can't imagine having his voice blasted over the PA at me would make me like it more the versions of mayonaise that are "on point" are ones from the 90s where i actually feel things hearing him sing it, even if technically they're bad these ones make me cringe slightly

10-12-2016, 09:57 AM	#55
cork_soaker full of longing Posts: 11,538	The one efx we used a lot on Billy's voice was the Eventide harmonizer, to add a slight double effect. Usually 20 or 30 ms delay, with about a 10 cent pitch offset. -butch vig from that gearsluts q&a

10-12-2016, 10:46 AM	#57
run2pee Minion of Satan Location: An oasis of horror in a desert of boredom Posts: 7,754	Everyone saying bill sounds like shit live rite now ... Did u actually go to a plainsong?? Or just checkin boots Cuz just like guitar tone, a boot is not gonna b super accurate. I maintain that in Little Rock, I was absolutely stunned by bill's voice. It was truly powerful, he was belting it out at times like a bonafide pop star

10-12-2016, 01:54 PM	#58
Grox Apocalyptic Poster Posts: 1,695	yep, I saw them in April and Bill sounded great. Stumbleine in particularly was amazing, the way he belted the chorus.

10-12-2016, 02:36 PM	#60
T&T Socialphobic Location: montreal Posts: 11,679	I just don't hear the new found 'power in his voice' the weird consonants... weird man. he doesn't hit every note. you've got to be tone deaf if you're thinking he does. it's not as bad is some pre 95 live stuff... but there's a lot left to be desired.