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Old 10-09-2016, 11:40 PM   #1
Row
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Default Billy's Singing, Change in Singing effected Post-Adore work?/Production Rant

It's pretty clear that Billy changed up his singing around Machina. To me it sounds like he started pushing the notes up through the top of his throat into his nose and head making it sound WAY more nasally and whiny. It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's my opinion that Billy's voice sounded much better in the Gish-Adore days and I think that the mid-range thing Butch was talking about is the nasally-whine I am referring to. I think Billy sounds so much more badass doing his breath-y, soft, dreamy-style vocals and the occasional scream. What do you guys think? Do you think quality of some of the later Pumpkin's work, including Machina, suffered due to him changing up his singing? Something that interests me is that one of the only later Pumpkins songs of any worth is "Song for a Son" and in that song he definitely is laying off the nasally-thing (although it's still there a little bit) and he's using some chest voice blended in.

Billy needs to get a real f&*%ing producer in there and guide him through some of this stuff. Sorry, Howie Weinberg is a shit producer and he needs to stick with doing what he does best.. mastering. Monuments is pathetic. Oceania = mediocre at best. Pretty apparent Bjorn Thorsrud is not even close to the level of Producer Billy Needs. I don't mean to rant but it makes me so angry that Billy could create such awesome work at one point and then piss it all away. Granted, there's many reasons for this happening but the Producer thing is a major one in my mind.

 
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Old 10-09-2016, 11:58 PM   #2
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Anyway here's Anti-Hero

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:37 AM   #3
qwerty sp
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Best damned Californian Amish rake fighter I've ever seen...

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 01:29 AM   #4
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is the amish rake fighter supposed to be some sort of SP joke?

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 01:53 AM   #5
jakobtheliar
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I think his voice in zwan and on tfe is just fine. In fact sounds pretty good with him pushing from his diaphragm and not his head or throat voice. That really came full force during those long zg area residencies and shows. I feel like he adopted that style to save his voice as he got older. Doing the whole throaty singing and consonant dropping are a direct result of this. Billy was never a great singer but he was the singer of the smashing pumpkins. Arguably one of the most original creative band of their time.

To argue the production is kinda the same but also a way larger argument. Adore was vocally obsessively produced and it is almost impossible to argue that those vocals aren't his best. That airy breathy thing is fantastic you're right. But let's be honest since zeitgeist the ambiance and subtlety of the music has been missing. They catapulted the vocals and made the songs sound polished and completed.

Who is missing in that equation? It ain't Jeff, no offense.

Real singers like Vedder and Springsteen have taken to aging and have actually gotten better vocal ranges now. No. They aren't perfect and the boss live definitely bothers me but they don't sing like deaf people dropping letters fro wors

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:06 AM   #6
qwerty sp
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Damn these are some fine rake fighters!

For as long as the band will be around- so will the vocals

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:14 AM   #7
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Ps. Crazy people that are rich don't hire real producers whom will tell them how to sing. They hire yes men for the money.
Otherwise how do you explain mtae and that subsequent tour?

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:39 AM   #8
Row
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Haha qwerty! Thanks for the compliment btw..

And yes jakob! I agree, I get your point about aging and having to exercise some new muscles to save your voice as you get older and also agree about Adore being his some of his best vocals.. I just feel like he doesn't have to do that whiny/nasally thing as much as he does.. For example on "Song for a Son"... It's still there but its done tastefully.

I wonder if James and D'arcy have any thoughts on this kind of stuff? If they actually make another record together will they, specifically D'arcy, influence Billy to work on some of that vocal stuff and bring some quality back? She definitely had LOTS to say about Bill's vocals throughout time. On YouTube there's some interview where she called some Chicago radio station around 2009 to ask about the Silversun Pickups and was saying some critical stuff about Billy's voice. I loved it!!!

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:43 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Row View Post
It's pretty clear that Billy changed up his singing around Machina. To me it sounds like he started pushing the notes up through the top of his throat into his nose and head making it sound WAY more nasally and whiny. It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's my opinion that Billy's voice sounded much better in the Gish-Adore days and I think that the mid-range thing Butch was talking about is the nasally-whine I am referring to. I think Billy sounds so much more badass doing his breath-y, soft, dreamy-style vocals and the occasional scream. What do you guys think? Do you think quality of some of the later Pumpkin's work, including Machina, suffered due to him changing up his singing? Something that interests me is that one of the only later Pumpkins songs of any worth is "Song for a Son" and in that song he definitely is laying off the nasally-thing (although it's still there a little bit) and he's using some chest voice blended in.

Billy needs to get a real f&*%ing producer in there and guide him through some of this stuff. Sorry, Howie Weinberg is a shit producer and he needs to stick with doing what he does best.. mastering. Monuments is pathetic. Oceania = mediocre at best. Pretty apparent Bjorn Thorsrud is not even close to the level of Producer Billy Needs. I don't mean to rant but it makes me so angry that Billy could create such awesome work at one point and then piss it all away. Granted, there's many reasons for this happening but the Producer thing is a major one in my mind.
There was a thread on here from 2014/2015 that included some first person details from an engineer who worked with Billy during the Teargarden era who said that there was a guy (who I believe went unnamed) who punched in every syllable of from Billy's numerous vocal takes to get his vocals to sound somewhat listenable on tape.

I don't know the name of the thread though. It's buried here somewhere though.

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom View Post
There was a thread on here from 2014/2015 that included some first person details from an engineer who worked with Billy during the Teargarden era who said that there was a guy (who I believe went unnamed) who punched in every syllable of from Billy's numerous vocal takes to get his vocals to sound somewhat listenable on tape.

I don't know the name of the thread though. It's buried here somewhere though.
that's not what it said
records these days are pretty much always autotuned and/or pitch-corrected in some way; billy, what with wanting to make a record that "the kids" truly wanted to listen to, was still not going to go down this avenue

so basically they just did the analog version of it, choosing the best take for every vocal note or syllable to get the same kind of "perfect vocal track" the pop artists of today are putting out via digital editing, etc

it wasn't about bill being a shitty singer or anything

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:55 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom View Post
There was a thread on here from 2014/2015 that included some first person details from an engineer who worked with Billy during the Teargarden era who said that there was a guy (who I believe went unnamed) who punched in every syllable of from Billy's numerous vocal takes to get his vocals to sound somewhat listenable on tape.

I don't know the name of the thread though. It's buried here somewhere though.
Oh I remember that. Eesh. BTW, I've been on this message board since about 98. Really miss d'arcy.

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 03:54 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ram27 View Post
some sort of SP joke
the real name for SP 2.0

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 04:14 AM   #13
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It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice." It's interesting to me articles that mention that Butch Vig "didn't care for the midrange in Billy's voice."

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 09:57 AM   #14
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Old 10-10-2016, 03:20 PM   #15
Row
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Word.

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 09:04 PM   #16
Jelly Blossom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mals Marola View Post
that's not what it said
records these days are pretty much always autotuned and/or pitch-corrected in some way; billy, what with wanting to make a record that "the kids" truly wanted to listen to, was still not going to go down this avenue

so basically they just did the analog version of it, choosing the best take for every vocal note or syllable to get the same kind of "perfect vocal track" the pop artists of today are putting out via digital editing, etc

it wasn't about bill being a shitty singer or anything
It didn't say any of that either.

Billy wouldn't spend the precious cash to have all that work done if he didn't need it but if you wanna believe otherwise then go ahead, I'll allow it.

Last edited by Jelly Blossom : 10-10-2016 at 09:12 PM.

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 09:36 PM   #17
T&T
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the exaggerated nasal voice worked for machina. billy was playing a caricature of himself and the production pushed that nasal voice even further on machina 2.

but of course everyone preferred the soft dreamy SD vocal production.

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 10:04 PM   #18
Ram27
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weren't the SD vocals run through a phaser as well?

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 10:26 PM   #19
Row
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T&T.. Interesting point. I never thought about the Glass/caricature thing and if that had anything to do with style of the vocals on Machina.

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 10:38 PM   #20
Jelly Blossom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakobtheliar View Post
Oh I remember that. Eesh. BTW, I've been on this message board since about 98. Really miss d'arcy.
Here's the thread from May of 2015:

RED ALERT who's got a Something Awful account

http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=182663

These are the engineer's words, not mine from post #16 of that thread:

Quote:
We recorded on 2" studer tape machines. The vocal process was really interesting. There were about 16 takes for any given track, all one seperate tape tracks. Then the head engineer would spend about a day listening to them all, and in a grid rated EVERY SYLLABLE in each take, and comped the entire thing, per syllable to a single, new tape track. This was this guy's "what I am famous for" skill. the process was nuts, he would hit the shit out of the studer control console thing so fast and hard to punch in punch out each syllable. And apparantly thats the way its always been done with billy. He likes the tape, but is always a collage of lots of takes, comped to tape.
That's a lot of time, energy, effort and cash to give Billy the vocal takes that people here are complaining about. If people are finding his vocals distasteful after all of this effort, then imagine how bad any one of those raw 16 takes must sound like.

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 10:49 PM   #21
Disco King
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I know people's voices change as they age and that nobody sounds the same in their '50s as they do in their '30s, but Corgan's current singing style sounds more like a purposeful aesthetic choice than a necessity of age, and it also sounds really shitty. He sings like he has a wah-wah pedal in his fucking mouth these days. He's all, "this is a seehawng fer a seeuhn..."

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 11:00 PM   #22
teh b0lly!!1
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i just think the change in his singing comes from not having the energy to sing like he did when he was young anymore.

he's not a naturally great sounding singer - that 'breathy' singing and youthful snarl that he had, were essentially his (very much successful) ways of hiding the fact that his abilities as vocalist are very limited. now he just goes full head voice on everything, because he can't be fucked singing dozens of takes in the studio and perfecting on that master take, or beating himself up live trying to sound good.

singing in a full head voice is more 'correct', and it's more 'reliable' for pitch accuracy, but it also projects a very different timbre, that only really works for some singers (usually of lower registers). bill is definitely not one of them.

 
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Old 10-10-2016, 11:09 PM   #23
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From the recent tape op thing:
http://tapeop.com/interviews/115/sma...tudio-history/

Quote:
Billy Corgan: There is a sonic aspect to that. My voice is quite thin and small, so my voice tends to sound bigger, actually, in a wall of guitars. It's been weird for me in the last seven years, because as vocals have gotten louder in the sonic spectrum – and the general consensus is, "Well, you should have louder vocals" – it exposed my voice in a way that probably wouldn't be as exposed if it was still sitting in a pile of guitars. Fans are always complaining and saying, "Turn your vocals back down," but that's the way I like to hear it. Siamese Dream is probably the greatest: Jimmy on fire, and me singing behind a wall of guitars is probably the greatest expression of what we are capable of.
I still have no fucking idea what he's saying here

"So the last 7 years I've been putting my vox on top b/c everyone else does. Even tho fans hate it, but that's the way I like to hear it. But also, I acknowledge that the best I'm actually capable of is singing behind the guitars."

Uhhhhh, soooooo...

 
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Old 10-11-2016, 02:04 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom View Post
It didn't say any of that either.

Billy wouldn't spend the precious cash to have all that work done if he didn't need it but if you wanna believe otherwise then go ahead, I'll allow it.
billy live isn't all that much different from billy studio these days, and hasn't really been since mellon collie, honestly

you can try and shit on the man further by acting like "tape comps" is the only way he could get a decent vocal take on record, but really it's just the result of a man who wants to match up to modern standards without actually using certain modern "practices" to get there

 
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Old 10-11-2016, 02:50 AM   #25
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His vocal chords were/are probably all ripped up so he doesn't have a choice. That or age. or both.

 
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Old 10-11-2016, 03:22 AM   #26
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i'm glad he went to the extremes he did on Machina, it's one of the things that make those records distinctive

from Zwan onward though it seems like he lost a lot of his self-awareness as a vocalist or something and it's kind of been that way ever since

 
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Old 10-11-2016, 03:51 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mals Marola View Post
billy live isn't all that much different from billy studio these days, and hasn't really been since mellon collie, honestly

you can try and shit on the man further by acting like "tape comps" is the only way he could get a decent vocal take on record, but really it's just the result of a man who wants to match up to modern standards without actually using certain modern "practices" to get there
You're inferring a lot of your own thoughts here... Billy clearly is a terrible vocalist who only sounds good in the studio due to the hard work of the various engineers/producers who get paid very handsomely to work their magic.

Think of it this way, if Billy could get decent/good quality vocal takes in the studio without all that additional help, then why would he pay a premium for those services?

I know you want to try to defend him, but with how bad Billy's voice has always been live it's obvious that there's a lot of magic going on in the studio going on.

 
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Old 10-11-2016, 04:05 AM   #28
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in terms of literally hitting the notes correctly he's a totally adequate singer and has improved a lot since the early days

 
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Old 10-11-2016, 04:23 AM   #29
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I love his voice on those early albums though. You can still hear a soul.

 
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Old 10-11-2016, 07:29 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jelly Blossom View Post
You're inferring a lot of your own thoughts here... Billy clearly is a terrible vocalist who only sounds good in the studio due to the hard work of the various engineers/producers who get paid very handsomely to work their magic.

Think of it this way, if Billy could get decent/good quality vocal takes in the studio without all that additional help, then why would he pay a premium for those services?

I know you want to try to defend him, but with how bad Billy's voice has always been live it's obvious that there's a lot of magic going on in the studio going on.
james iha also enjoyed the services of those same producers.
why does he still sound like shit?

 
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