negativity and creativity

mellon_c0llie · 11-23-2009, 01:23 AM

Speaking as an artist I find that when I begin a project that I’m excited about and share it with others that negative feedback can effect my enthusiasm for completing the project. The stronger the negative feedback the further away I stay.

I can’t imagine how difficult it is for Billy right now. He’s had several years of disappointing albums and unenthusiastic fan responses. Here we are cl******g away for the first new song. He knows that if he screws it up… if he slips up at all… there’s no reason to keep going with this massive undertaking. Even if the criticism is completely fair and accurate it will still be a hard pill to swallow.

I mean we are supposed to be his core base. We should be the people who support him no matter what. If he can’t win us over there’s no way main stream will ever embrace him again. Is that what he’s searching for? Is that the reason he continues to create art? Who cares. I want the guy to be happy and I want him to continue to make great music. I think the two go hand in hand. I believe an open mind and positive reinforcement will lead to better to music to come.

Otherwise are we just wasting our time here?

Shallowed · 11-23-2009, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mellon_c0llie

Otherwise are we just wasting our time here?

Yeah, actually.

Mayfuck · 11-23-2009, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mellon_c0llie

Otherwise are we just wasting our time here?

yeah

Manuglass · 11-23-2009, 07:01 AM

Good post mellon_c0llie. That's not the philosophy round here though. And the SP are not making it any easier by not reporting from time to time.

thomas_bland · 11-23-2009, 10:24 AM

The thing is that i'm really really excited about these forthcoming releases. Checking the official site, Hipsters, kerry Brown's twitter about ten times a day.

I'm like Cartman waiting for the Wii to be released.

However it's now approaching a month since it was hinted that we could expect a release, I believe the quote was 'Once it's done there is nothing stopping me... blah blah blah'. So where is it? I'd be happier if we got some form of update saying the tracks weren't quite right, distribution problems or even we're going to hold off next year so it doesn't get ignored because of Christmas (Bill fighting Jesus for publicity - ha).

I wouldn't even mind if we were told that due to the negativity on forums (or I imagine in messages to Brown etc...) that we were not neccesarily going to get the music. As fans we're used to getting told off (via email / bitchy comments in interviews) by Corgan.

I'd just like to know either way what is going on, and in the meantime i'm going to take the piss.

Who cares? If a few people making fun of an 'artist' on a forum (a forum known exactly for that) can get in the way of his 'vision' on the future of music - It shows that his soul is in a very poor shape indeed.

Phoenix Down · 11-23-2009, 10:53 AM

I'm not sure Billy knows how the internet works. You can't create a buzz and then not deliver. Friends of mine keep asking me what has happened to that ambitious album project and I have nothing to tell them. It's hard to have people anticipating a Pumpkins album, when even the hardcore fans wouldn't be too surprised about the whole project getting scrapped. or it sucking ass for that matter.

Jesus Cambodia · 11-24-2009, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mellon_c0llie

Speaking as an artist...

sniffingchimp · 11-24-2009, 09:44 AM

In all seriousness, I think as Pumpkins fans we've been let down so many times over the last few years (including being ranted at for enjoying older material) I think we have nothing to be ashamed of in bashing the fuck out of Billy. I used to be the first to jump to his defence on this board but everyone is just getting fed up now.

yoshinobu's revenge · 11-24-2009, 10:12 AM

I don't know if netphoria really is his core base. His core base is Linda Strawberry and some other random yes men/women in California.

He should give up on mainstream because that's already gone. The best he can do is keep some of his previous fans interested in potential new material.

redbull · 11-24-2009, 11:14 AM

be fair, he's walking around with his pants down and then daring people to say his pants are down and then threatening suicide when someone tells him his pants are down

sniffingchimp · 11-24-2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbull

be fair, he's walking around with his pants down and then daring people to say his pants are down and then threatening suicide when someone tells him his pants are down

mellon_c0llie · 11-24-2009, 12:32 PM

yeah I mean. I feel cheated too. I've been a completely devoted fan and haven't blinked in the last ten years. I just feel like with every re-iteration of "I'll do better" it can be hard for him to actually achieve that. It's like piling one failure on top of another. The task just gets harder to achieve.

Trotskilicious · 11-24-2009, 06:08 PM

you know if the guy wasn't a total douche you might have a point

Trotskilicious · 11-24-2009, 06:09 PM

i mean we're talking about a guy whose idea of charity is the songwriter's hall of fame

slunken · 11-24-2009, 07:33 PM

we're talking about a guy who's idea of apologizing is taking out a full page ad in the local paper.

thomas_bland · 11-24-2009, 10:25 PM

Got about 4 seconds into the red book bullshit and couldn't stop laughing. The I wondered where the new music was. Then I got mad. Bored now.

Leeds? Friday? Anyone?

Trotskilicious · 11-25-2009, 03:59 AM

i think you're one of like fourteen people that care that much

7shadesofblack · 11-25-2009, 06:13 AM

I agree with the OP to an extent. Billy is definitely inconsistent and sometimes makes erratic decisions. His personality and mood swings probably also make him difficult to work closely with over a long period of time. I think that that can be understood and accepted for what it is without all of the constant bashing. The man is a guitar god and a songwriting genius. He has given us so many brilliant songs over the years.

Obviously in more recent years his work has been more hit and miss than it used to be, but times change and few musicians are able or willing to change with them. I'd love nothing more than for Billy to release an album on par with SD, or MCIS, but as that is so unlikely I'll just enjoy the few gems that come along.

As over-analytical as this may sound, this issue comes down to the values or virtues that you assign to your definition of what a fan is, I guess. Having been a fan for quite a while now I feel like I sort of understand Billy in terms of his flaws and talents. He's an artist. Like so many artists of the past he has a strange personality, and that affects his decision making at times. Think of all of the other musicians with which that was the case. Take Nick Drake for instance. His genius and his personal issues or shortcomings were intertwined. If Drake would have been unfortunate enough to have his own Netphoria-like web forum during his short career, a handful of mean-spirited fans would definitely have raked him over the coals for his personal flaws. But that is harmful and pointless, because the man is who he is, and anything but constructive, respectful feedback is only going to worsen the problem.

You can wish for a Billy Corgan that always makes sound decisions and is stable enough to consistently pump out hit after hit after hit, but that isn't who he is. He's an artist that runs into conflicts, changes his mind, suffers from injured pride, and wants to do things for his own reasons at times even if it doesn't make sense to anyone else. That's just who he is. This will never happen, but I wish people would either support him or just leave him alone. Supporting him because of what he did 15 years ago but hating him for things he has done more recently is truly pointless. And, at least in my opinion, there is never any warrant for the immature personal attacks made against Billy routinely by some people here. If you observe some of his recent moves that seem odd and wonder what is behind them, it seems clear that at least part of the explanation is Billy's lack of genuine confidence, or direction, or something else. So how should I respond as a fan to him making a seemingly poor decision likely based on his own shortcomings or personal issues he may be struggling with? Tearing him down and making fun of him incessantly won't help the situation at all, and may even make it worse. Why not either be quiet or find a way to get my point across with some respect?

thomas_bland · 11-25-2009, 06:14 AM

True and Sad.

CrabbMan · 11-25-2009, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mellon_c0llie

I mean we are supposed to be his core base. We should be the people who support him no matter what. If he can’t win us over there’s no way main stream will ever embrace him again.

I think what Billy can expect from these core fans is unfiltered honesty from people who have an informed opinion.

I'm not sure exactly what negativity the OP is talking about (is it negativity from this board? is it negativity read in music blogs? is Billy ranting to some reporter about the negativity surrounding the current project--I haven't actually seen that recently), but there's always negativity and criticism. I'm sure Billy Corgan can be criticized while still producing great art.

Ugly · 11-25-2009, 10:26 PM

Not speaking as an artist it's really douchey to introduce one's point by stating "speaking as an artist"

aztec litany service · 11-26-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus Cambodia

oh put a sock in it

mellon_c0llie · 11-26-2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugly

Not speaking as an artist it's really douchey to introduce one's point by stating "speaking as an artist"

I'm not trying to say I'm superior or anything. I'm just putting into context about how I feel as an artist and how negativity effects my creativity.

I could just as well say "speaking as a netphorian, my observance is..." I'm merely contextualizing my opinion.

I think I forgot to mention in my original post that I tend to have issues with manic depression. I've managed to maintain it a lot better over the years. However I can be sensitive to other people's opinions even though I know they shouldn't deter me from achieving what I set out to do. That may be what Billy is facing and that might offer insight into his delays and broken promises.

kingflupps · 11-27-2009, 04:02 PM

That was an awesome post 7ShadesofBlack. Pretty much summed it up.

Deric · 11-27-2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7shadesofblack

I agree with the OP to an extent. Billy is definitely inconsistent and sometimes makes erratic decisions. His personality and mood swings probably also make him difficult to work closely with over a long period of time. I think that that can be understood and accepted for what it is without all of the constant bashing. The man is a guitar god and a songwriting genius. He has given us so many brilliant songs over the years.

Obviously in more recent years his work has been more hit and miss than it used to be, but times change and few musicians are able or willing to change with them. I'd love nothing more than for Billy to release an album on par with SD, or MCIS, but as that is so unlikely I'll just enjoy the few gems that come along.

As over-analytical as this may sound, this issue comes down to the values or virtues that you assign to your definition of what a fan is, I guess. Having been a fan for quite a while now I feel like I sort of understand Billy in terms of his flaws and talents. He's an artist. Like so many artists of the past he has a strange personality, and that affects his decision making at times. Think of all of the other musicians with which that was the case. Take Nick Drake for instance. His genius and his personal issues or shortcomings were intertwined. If Drake would have been unfortunate enough to have his own Netphoria-like web forum during his short career, a handful of mean-spirited fans would definitely have raked him over the coals for his personal flaws. But that is harmful and pointless, because the man is who he is, and anything but constructive, respectful feedback is only going to worsen the problem.

You can wish for a Billy Corgan that always makes sound decisions and is stable enough to consistently pump out hit after hit after hit, but that isn't who he is. He's an artist that runs into conflicts, changes his mind, suffers from injured pride, and wants to do things for his own reasons at times even if it doesn't make sense to anyone else. That's just who he is. This will never happen, but I wish people would either support him or just leave him alone. Supporting him because of what he did 15 years ago but hating him for things he has done more recently is truly pointless. And, at least in my opinion, there is never any warrant for the immature personal attacks made against Billy routinely by some people here. If you observe some of his recent moves that seem odd and wonder what is behind them, it seems clear that at least part of the explanation is Billy's lack of genuine confidence, or direction, or something else. So how should I respond as a fan to him making a seemingly poor decision likely based on his own shortcomings or personal issues he may be struggling with? Tearing him down and making fun of him incessantly won't help the situation at all, and may even make it worse. Why not either be quiet or find a way to get my point across with some respect?

This post should be a sticky.

slunken · 11-27-2009, 04:42 PM

perhaps you should a print it out and a cum all over it

Deric · 11-27-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slunken

perhaps you should a print it out and a cum all over it

I already did it, what do you think ?

slunken · 11-27-2009, 04:50 PM

i got nuthin'... :/

Phoenix Down · 11-27-2009, 05:18 PM

I agree with 7shades to an extent, although the times were I was a fan ob Billy, the musician, and Billy, the person, are definitely over. I can't stand his new age bullshit and I'm sometimes having a hard time detaching his persona from his work. Suffice to say, there seems to be a correlation in the downfall of both.

Shallowed · 11-27-2009, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slunken

perhaps you should a print it out and a cum all over it

http://forums.netphoria.org/customav...tar11903_1.gif

11-23-2009, 01:23 AM	#1
mellon_c0llie Minion of Jesus Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 564	negativity and creativity Speaking as an artist I find that when I begin a project that I’m excited about and share it with others that negative feedback can effect my enthusiasm for completing the project. The stronger the negative feedback the further away I stay. I can’t imagine how difficult it is for Billy right now. He’s had several years of disappointing albums and unenthusiastic fan responses. Here we are cl******g away for the first new song. He knows that if he screws it up… if he slips up at all… there’s no reason to keep going with this massive undertaking. Even if the criticism is completely fair and accurate it will still be a hard pill to swallow. I mean we are supposed to be his core base. We should be the people who support him no matter what. If he can’t win us over there’s no way main stream will ever embrace him again. Is that what he’s searching for? Is that the reason he continues to create art? Who cares. I want the guy to be happy and I want him to continue to make great music. I think the two go hand in hand. I believe an open mind and positive reinforcement will lead to better to music to come. Otherwise are we just wasting our time here?

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11-23-2009, 07:01 AM	#4
Manuglass Pledge Location: Madrid Posts: 59	Good post mellon_c0llie. That's not the philosophy round here though. And the SP are not making it any easier by not reporting from time to time.

11-23-2009, 10:24 AM	#5
thomas_bland Ownz Location: the diaspora Posts: 669	The thing is that i'm really really excited about these forthcoming releases. Checking the official site, Hipsters, kerry Brown's twitter about ten times a day. I'm like Cartman waiting for the Wii to be released. However it's now approaching a month since it was hinted that we could expect a release, I believe the quote was 'Once it's done there is nothing stopping me... blah blah blah'. So where is it? I'd be happier if we got some form of update saying the tracks weren't quite right, distribution problems or even we're going to hold off next year so it doesn't get ignored because of Christmas (Bill fighting Jesus for publicity - ha). I wouldn't even mind if we were told that due to the negativity on forums (or I imagine in messages to Brown etc...) that we were not neccesarily going to get the music. As fans we're used to getting told off (via email / bitchy comments in interviews) by Corgan. I'd just like to know either way what is going on, and in the meantime i'm going to take the piss. Who cares? If a few people making fun of an 'artist' on a forum (a forum known exactly for that) can get in the way of his 'vision' on the future of music - It shows that his soul is in a very poor shape indeed.

11-23-2009, 10:53 AM	#6
Phoenix Down Apocalyptic Poster Location: Bayern München Posts: 3,302	I'm not sure Billy knows how the internet works. You can't create a buzz and then not deliver. Friends of mine keep asking me what has happened to that ambitious album project and I have nothing to tell them. It's hard to have people anticipating a Pumpkins album, when even the hardcore fans wouldn't be too surprised about the whole project getting scrapped. or it sucking ass for that matter.

11-24-2009, 09:44 AM	#8
sniffingchimp Ownz Posts: 771	In all seriousness, I think as Pumpkins fans we've been let down so many times over the last few years (including being ranted at for enjoying older material) I think we have nothing to be ashamed of in bashing the fuck out of Billy. I used to be the first to jump to his defence on this board but everyone is just getting fed up now.

11-24-2009, 10:12 AM	#9
yoshinobu's revenge Apocalyptic Poster Posts: 1,588	I don't know if netphoria really is his core base. His core base is Linda Strawberry and some other random yes men/women in California. He should give up on mainstream because that's already gone. The best he can do is keep some of his previous fans interested in potential new material.

11-24-2009, 11:14 AM	#10
redbull Immortal Location: like liutenant dan i'm rollin' Posts: 21,016	be fair, he's walking around with his pants down and then daring people to say his pants are down and then threatening suicide when someone tells him his pants are down

11-24-2009, 12:32 PM	#12
mellon_c0llie Minion of Jesus Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 564	yeah I mean. I feel cheated too. I've been a completely devoted fan and haven't blinked in the last ten years. I just feel like with every re-iteration of "I'll do better" it can be hard for him to actually achieve that. It's like piling one failure on top of another. The task just gets harder to achieve.

11-24-2009, 06:08 PM	#13
Trotskilicious Banned Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship. Posts: 39,439	you know if the guy wasn't a total douche you might have a point

11-24-2009, 06:09 PM	#14
Trotskilicious Banned Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship. Posts: 39,439	i mean we're talking about a guy whose idea of charity is the songwriter's hall of fame

11-24-2009, 07:33 PM	#15
slunken Virgo Posts: 42,781	we're talking about a guy who's idea of apologizing is taking out a full page ad in the local paper.

11-24-2009, 10:25 PM	#16
thomas_bland Ownz Location: the diaspora Posts: 669	Got about 4 seconds into the red book bullshit and couldn't stop laughing. The I wondered where the new music was. Then I got mad. Bored now. Leeds? Friday? Anyone?

11-25-2009, 03:59 AM	#17
Trotskilicious Banned Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship. Posts: 39,439	i think you're one of like fourteen people that care that much

11-25-2009, 06:13 AM	#18
7shadesofblack Pledge Posts: 217	I agree with the OP to an extent. Billy is definitely inconsistent and sometimes makes erratic decisions. His personality and mood swings probably also make him difficult to work closely with over a long period of time. I think that that can be understood and accepted for what it is without all of the constant bashing. The man is a guitar god and a songwriting genius. He has given us so many brilliant songs over the years. Obviously in more recent years his work has been more hit and miss than it used to be, but times change and few musicians are able or willing to change with them. I'd love nothing more than for Billy to release an album on par with SD, or MCIS, but as that is so unlikely I'll just enjoy the few gems that come along. As over-analytical as this may sound, this issue comes down to the values or virtues that you assign to your definition of what a fan is, I guess. Having been a fan for quite a while now I feel like I sort of understand Billy in terms of his flaws and talents. He's an artist. Like so many artists of the past he has a strange personality, and that affects his decision making at times. Think of all of the other musicians with which that was the case. Take Nick Drake for instance. His genius and his personal issues or shortcomings were intertwined. If Drake would have been unfortunate enough to have his own Netphoria-like web forum during his short career, a handful of mean-spirited fans would definitely have raked him over the coals for his personal flaws. But that is harmful and pointless, because the man is who he is, and anything but constructive, respectful feedback is only going to worsen the problem. You can wish for a Billy Corgan that always makes sound decisions and is stable enough to consistently pump out hit after hit after hit, but that isn't who he is. He's an artist that runs into conflicts, changes his mind, suffers from injured pride, and wants to do things for his own reasons at times even if it doesn't make sense to anyone else. That's just who he is. This will never happen, but I wish people would either support him or just leave him alone. Supporting him because of what he did 15 years ago but hating him for things he has done more recently is truly pointless. And, at least in my opinion, there is never any warrant for the immature personal attacks made against Billy routinely by some people here. If you observe some of his recent moves that seem odd and wonder what is behind them, it seems clear that at least part of the explanation is Billy's lack of genuine confidence, or direction, or something else. So how should I respond as a fan to him making a seemingly poor decision likely based on his own shortcomings or personal issues he may be struggling with? Tearing him down and making fun of him incessantly won't help the situation at all, and may even make it worse. Why not either be quiet or find a way to get my point across with some respect?

11-25-2009, 06:14 AM	#19
thomas_bland Ownz Location: the diaspora Posts: 669	True and Sad.

11-25-2009, 10:26 PM	#21
Ugly Immortal Location: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed Posts: 21,248	Not speaking as an artist it's really douchey to introduce one's point by stating "speaking as an artist"

11-27-2009, 04:02 PM	#24
kingflupps Oblivious Virgin Location: Surbiton, UK Posts: 28	That was an awesome post 7ShadesofBlack. Pretty much summed it up.

11-27-2009, 04:42 PM	#26
slunken Virgo Posts: 42,781	perhaps you should a print it out and a cum all over it

11-27-2009, 04:50 PM	#28
slunken Virgo Posts: 42,781	i got nuthin'... :/

11-27-2009, 05:18 PM	#29
Phoenix Down Apocalyptic Poster Location: Bayern München Posts: 3,302	I agree with 7shades to an extent, although the times were I was a fan ob Billy, the musician, and Billy, the person, are definitely over. I can't stand his new age bullshit and I'm sometimes having a hard time detaching his persona from his work. Suffice to say, there seems to be a correlation in the downfall of both.