Judas Ø vs Pisces Iscariot

[T&T]

well, not really a "vs" thread
cause to me PI wins hands down

in another thread someone referred to Rotten Apples as and "album" and i found that peculiar

do people consider Judas Ø an album? because to me it's more of a compilation
yet Pisces feels like an album to me and NOT a compilation
i don't feel the album continuity to Judas Ø

maybe it's the the MCIS b-sides on Judas Ø that feel like blasphemy.

[brock666]

Not to down Judas Ø because i really enjoy it, but I see it as more of a bonus disc than anything. Feel me?

[???]

in a way, i think judas really does hold together as an "album"...despite being more stylistically varied perhaps than pisces, its unified by the rawness of the songs and their production...historically i think judas is a far more significant body of work than pi, it has alot more scope and musical depth too, so i'll go with judas.

[waltermcphilp]

i would think PI is more of a compilation than an album considering all it is is a cd full of already released b sides from the singles. judas O is generally stuff that had not been heard before.

[slunken]

i just listened to judas 0 in its entirety for the first time last week (before i only had dl'd the song versions I didn't have) and it works really great as an album. It takes my fav pumpkin eras (post MCIS (97) and Machina (00) and slaps them together. Throw in some left field X-ed out blissy Adore-era trax and it smashed me to bits. GREAT as an album/compilation/whatever you want to call it.

PI is just too old for me I can't get into it anymore.

so is Judas 0 better than Machina? ??

[somaziro]

PI is my number 1 or 2 pumpkins album. It never felt like a compilation to me because when it came out I had never heard of any or heard any of the songs on it, so it was totally like an album to me whereas Judas O had some stuff on it that I had already heard from various other sources and it was packaged with a greatest hits. I agree with brock666

[T&T]

Originally Posted by somaziro

PI is my number 1 or 2 pumpkins album. It never felt like a compilation to me because when it came out I had never heard of any or heard any of the songs on it, so it was totally like an album to me whereas Judas O had some stuff on it that I had already heard from various other sources

yeah, that sums it up for me.

was a cassette version of Judas O released?

[dudehitscar]

they are both complitations. Judas O has some really bad songs on it (because you are, my mistake) but I appreciate it's variety. PI is generally excellent all around.

I like PI more by a lot and yes it feels more albumish to me because of the unvaried content.

[T&T]

i wish billy would record more songs like *spaced*

[SlingeroGuitaro]

i must be the only person on the board that enjoys 'because you are'


i son't like judas much. i was thrilled when i got the greatest hits in the mail and when i put it in i kept asking myself 'what the fuck is this shit'

there are a couple tracks i really enjoy- saturnine, because you are- and some that i hate- rock on, soot and stars.

comparing PI and Judas really shows how billys view towards music and songwriting changed. its a good collection of a few years in one short package.

[MonteLDS]

Judas Ø is a bonus cd.

[maoi]

I like Judas O a lot. Sparrow was a wonderful surprise when I first heard it. And unlike most people, I'm a fan of Because You Are.

[???]

because you are deserves its own fan club. liking this song separates the men from the boys.

[redbull]

hey isle don't you like machina

[cork_soaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...scCassette.jpg

[toadkat9]

Originally Posted by waltermcphilp

i would think PI is more of a compilation than an album considering all it is is a cd full of already released b sides from the singles. judas O is generally stuff that had not been heard before.

That is incorrect!! Prior to Pisces, the tracks Frail and Bedazzled, Whir, and Spaced had not been available AT ALL. And although La Dolly Vita had an official release on the Tristessa vinyl, most people in 1994 did not have that because it was NOT a b-side from a cd single. So really there are 4 tracks that had not been heard prior to Pisces release.

Where-as, the only songs I didn't have prior to Judas were Sparrow, Saturnine (Adore version), Winterlong, Soot & Stars, and the studio version of Rock On. So as far as I'm concerned, the majority of Judas was available (just like Pisces).

[T&T]

I really Like Because you are, it's classic modern (machina modern) pumpkins.
I Love Rock On
Sparrow & My Mistake are really sweet
I LOVE LOVE Blissed and Gone & Waiting


i just find Soot and Stars & Winterlong draw on. and on, and on.

I wish we had "artwork" for Judas Ø

[Shallowed]

Originally Posted by dudehitscar

they are both complitations. Judas O has some really bad songs on it (because you are, my mistake) but I appreciate it's variety. PI is generally excellent all around.

I like PI more by a lot and yes it feels more albumish to me because of the unvaried content.

Originally Posted by SlingeroGuitaro

i must be the only person on the board that enjoys 'because you are'


i son't like judas much. i was thrilled when i got the greatest hits in the mail and when i put it in i kept asking myself 'what the fuck is this shit'

there are a couple tracks i really enjoy- saturnine, because you are- and some that i hate- rock on, soot and stars.

comparing PI and Judas really shows how billys view towards music and songwriting changed. its a good collection of a few years in one short package.

Originally Posted by ???

because you are deserves its own fan club. liking this song separates the men from the boys.

I agree with everything here, except for part of what dudehitscar said.

In a nutshell, I don't really like either more than the other.

Judas O has some brilliant songs and some brilliatly shit songs,
Picses Iscariot has a lot of average songs.

So It evens out.

[Dajjal]

Judas Ø is cool. It definately feels more like a compilation ('cuz it is) than Pisces Iscariot though. And it has a lot in common with the Adore Demos II. Here's my theory:
Adore Demos II / Judas Ø was supposed to be released after Adore, just like Pisces Iscariot after Siamese Dream, The Aeroplane Flies High after Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness, and Machina II after Machina. For whatever reasons it was scrapped at the time, and upon release with Rotten Apples it was updated removing some of the less "polished" songs.

Anyway, I'm probably the only one who likes Soot and Stars.

[???]

Originally Posted by Dajjal

I'm probably the only one who likes Soot and Stars.

nope

[maoi]

Originally Posted by T&T

I really Like Because you are, it's classic modern (machina modern) pumpkins.
I Love Rock On
Sparrow & My Mistake are really sweet
I LOVE LOVE Blissed and Gone & Waiting


i just find Soot and Stars & Winterlong draw on. and on, and on.

I wish we had "artwork" for Judas Ø

Winterlong is one of Billy's best. I love its atmosphere. The bass at the end is sweet.

Soot & Stars is a nice song that had potential. I liked it initially but as the song aged its length becomes more of a problem. You just do not repeat the same piano line for 6 minutes with literally no dynamic change. A good song to compare it to is radioheads Videotape which has the same climbing piano medley, but swells and diminishes. Even when the effect is minor, the impact the song gives is much larger.

[Shallowed]

Originally Posted by maoi

Soot & Stars is a nice song that had potential. I liked it initially but as the song aged its length becomes more of a problem. You just do not repeat the same piano line for 6 minutes with literally no dynamic change.

http://www.catandbird.info/

"A Heart Made of Cotton"

Fuck yeah.

[???]

Originally Posted by maoi

Soot & Stars is a nice song that had potential. I liked it initially but as the song aged its length becomes more of a problem. You just do not repeat the same piano line for 6 minutes with literally no dynamic change. A good song to compare it to is radioheads Videotape which has the same climbing piano medley, but swells and diminishes. Even when the effect is minor, the impact the song gives is much larger.

i partly agree with you but i think the repetition works for soot and stars, it is kind of a hypnotic song in a sense. its important to note however that the lyrics are very stream-of-consciousness, like bill says, "the words flow"...i think he just wrote the song off the top of his head and that adds to the epiphanous grandeur of the piece. it really captures the "defining moment" bill's looking for.

[???]

also, if god had an organ, he'd probably play soot & stars

[waltermcphilp]

if there is a God i know he likes to RAWK

[dudehitscar]

Soots and stars is excellent and Winterlong is one of my favorite nonalbum tracks of all time.

I would love Judas O more if I didn't already have The Aeroplane Flies High.

[Gish08]

Pisces without a second thought.

That's not to say Judas O is bad. But c'mon, Pisces is vintage Pumpkins b-sides.

[silverfrick]

Pisces has its own album packaging. There is a common feel throughout it as well despite the variance. Judas 0 is a very random mix of 96-99. Didn't TAFH go gold or something? Many of the songs were already in healthy circulation. There were enough hidden songs floating around that could have been used for Judas.

[somaziro]

also, to me PI is the pumpkins, that album basically sums up everything that I have ever liked about them in the different songs. the quiet/loud the soft lullabies, the sweet guitar solos, the spacey feel, the neat/funny/interesting/hippy lyrics. everything that I love about them is summed up in PI.

[killtrocity]

Originally Posted by T&T

do people consider Judas Ø an album? because to me it's more of a compilation
yet Pisces feels like an album to me and NOT a compilation
i don't feel the album continuity to Judas Ø

maybe it's the the MCIS b-sides on Judas Ø that feel like blasphemy.

yes to all of that. then there's the odd songs like because you are and soot and stars, which people tend to hate at least one of, if not both. I regard the former as their worst song ever but enjoy the latter somewhat

obscured and whir are the best of their lighter songs. actually obscured is one of their best overall

both titles stemming from the name Judas Iscariot is the most common factor between them